gerbils?

Let's see...

1996 Toyota Rav4: 2500 pounds, only motor available produced 120hp/130tq
1998 Chevy Tracker: 2550 pounds, only motor available produced 95hp/99tq

(couldn't find info on the 96 tracker, if it even existed, so I gave GM the benefit of comparing a 2 year newer model).

Yeah... Toyota sure was the underpowered choice.

 

Hmm...what sits in my driveway (or has in the past year anyhow).
2004 Chevrolet Trailblazer.
2002 Chevrolet Cavalier.
1994 Chevrolet Camaro.
1986 Chevrolet 3500.
1971 GMC C10.
1969 GMC C10.
1951 GMC 1/2 Ton.

I'd say we are pretty well gonna stick with them regardless of their woes.
Heck - even the '02 Cavalier is a decent car. I bought it for my wife when she was finishing up her nursing school, and it has been an excellent vehicle.

Their are definitely other cars I like, but I have had good fortune with my GM's. I like some Acura's (Honda, I know), Lexus IS300, several BMW's, and a couple of Volvo's. But, I live in a place that is still pretty rural, and about 3 miles from my house they are trying to develop it so hard so fast with all this "buy buy buy" mentality stuff. I am going to do what I can to support the country I enjoy living in by buying a non-imported vehicle - and instead of just supporting the "buy buy buy" support the working man.

 

I've driven a Toyota for a few years. Didn't have any recalls so I didn't spend that much time at a dealer. Which means less of a chance of a bad dealership experience, or them ****ing up the car. I read so much about the bad GM dealers, I am really reluctant to go to one, until I meet someone that works for one.

Someone needs to make a website for dealership review. Where people can type in the name/address of the dealership and rate their experience. Maybe Chris/Jason could do this, so we could then PM the member on here that made the good/bad comment and talk to them about it before we decide to make a purchase from that dealer.

Ford has a horrible safety record of the older f-150's sucking at front crash tests, and explorers having the tires blow off and killing people...then having Ford drag their feet to correct the problem, costing a few innocent lives. I like their Mustang, and their performance cars, but I don't think I could ever buy a Ford as a family car.

 

that was a weird move....

 

Actually, Japanese cars have traditionally been made to be perfect as possible in the short term, at the expense of long term reliability. American cars have traditionally been reliable long term, but were put together as cheaply as possible. That's what created the entire "Japanese cars are quality-American cars are junk" mentality with the public. They see a near perfectly made Japanese car, then see an American car with uneven gaps and cheap materials. Perception is reality.

Japan has higher taxes and fees on cars as they get older, in order to keep people buying new cars and the industry moving. There comes a point where it's cheaper to buy a new car than to keep an older one. In addition to taxes, you had to replace timing belts (where we use longer lasting chains) at 50K miles, water pumps at not much higher, and most other components either crapped out or rusted out in timeframes much shorter than our cars here.

Japan has had to improve their cars for the long term since we in the US run our cars more miles than anyone else in the world, and tend to keep them longer. Everyone knows of someone who's Honda timing belt broke and destroyed the engine, but when was the last time you heard of an American built engine breaking a timing chain? (also betcha you's have far more "issues" with a '93 Supra or RX7 than you would a 93 Camaro or Mustang ).

We here have had to improve superficial things such as interior materials, closer and even gaps between panels, and rattles resulting of natural settling of materials over time. All of this is superficial stuff, but as you see in previous posts on this thread by certain people, this is what passes for quality over actual problems with the car or how the car is screwed together.

In a way it's telling because if the only thing left for the industry to do is use better grained plastics in the interior and tighten up some dashboard gaps, then combined with the already better J.D.Power quality ratings, the industry is doing very well in this area.

 

See, this is what I don't understand about import guys who criticize the Domestics. How can anyone in their right mind drive a Toyota Camry and say "you know, those cars from the American Big 3 are just so darn boring to look at." I mean really..... I could name a dozen vehicles with more inspiring/interesting designs than anything at Toyota and Honda, from GM divisions alone.

 

I can see where this could help public perception of quality, but in practice I don't see it as much of an incentive. I have purchased GM products almost exclusively for the last 30 years and I would estimate at least 50% of the time my problem is addressed by dealer service department as "normal operation/cannot duplicate." You have to fight tooth and nail to get them to even acknowledge a defect in the first place, then it takes three trips to get it fixed properly (if at all). And if you're lucky, they won't break/scratch/screw-up something else totally unrelated in the process. Warranties are only as good as those executing the repairs and my 30 years of experience is not at all favorable.

 

You are totally missing the bigger picture. If GM builds and equally bland *** car as say Honda (which they are still doing now), most consumers will choose Honda just for the fact of their past reliability compared to GM.

Now if GM can make a car that catches peoples attention, then it might be enough to surpass the boring *** Honda and the past quality proglems GM had.

GM needs to outbuild the competition. They are just not doing it. They still use the Japs as a benchmarkt to meet, not exceed in my opinion.

 

In that respect, cars are sometimes like the way us men perceive and pick out women.

Sometimes we like a fast and fun woman; we realize that she may not be the most dependable and we wouldn't want to live with her for the rest of our lives, but it's fun while it lasts.

Other times we just need to security of a bland but practical and dependable woman who makes life better in many ways even if she's not the most exciting person out there.

But nobody wants a woman that's unexciting AND undependable.

 

I read threads like this...those who have nothing to loose telling GM what's wrong with GM and what they have to do to be competitive and I can’t help but think about my experiences.

My family was a GM family and I remember them all. Our only mistake with a Ford car was a 1972 Ford LTD…it was a piece of crap and was quickly replaced by a 1970 Coupe DeVille. Other than that one mistake, we owned a ’56 BellAire, a ’63 Bonneville, a ’67 Delta 88, a ’69 Delta 88, then the LDT then various Cadillacs (at which point I was on my own). It was no surprise then than when it came time to buy my own first car, I turned to GM (oh…I forgot to mention my Uncle’s ’66 GTO tri-power; candy red with a white interior…God what a beautiful car).

Anyway, I put down $400 on a 1973 Firebird Formula 400 (Navaho orange with a white vinyl interior; my next two cars being a ’76 Trans Am (50th anniversary “Black/Gold special edition) and then a ’79 Black/Gold Special Edition Trans Am WS6 (both with tan vinyl interiors).

By the time I was on my third Firebird, I could tell you when the water pump was going to fail, when the transmission needed to be re-built and just about every other issue that was likely to come up and you know what? I couldn’t have cared less how often I had to deal with problems like that.

I loved those cars; as much as you can love a car…if the engines needed to be replaced every 10,000 miles I don’t think it would have made a difference to me; I’d have still bought and driven and loved them.

That’s why today, when I don’t even own a Camaro or Firebird, I connect with sites like this.

What’s the answer to GM’s problems? Well, in my “outsider’s opinion with nothing to loose; it’s finding a way to tap into that kind of passion for the vehicles they produce.

 

This is a joke of a paragraph...you dont think Honda? Toyota or Nissan are reliable cars for the long term? They are MUCH more reliable than american cars, not only mechanically but asthetically as well. Fewer rattles, fewer interior pieces fall apart, parts last longer, its really not even close. American cars have been a joke for almost 3 decades. The Japanese build better cars especially for the long term...the only real exception to this was the trucks we built here, but now with Honda and Nissan ramping up their truck programs we'll see how long that lasts. Toyota has been a long time builder of trucks that are more reliable and cheaper to maintain than American trucks so one *** company has had us beat on that front for 20+ years.

 

Actually, to use Nissan in the same sentence as Toyota and Honda is ridiculous. Nissan is not a Japanese car company, they are French. Their quality isn't close to that of the Domestics, much less Toyota and Honda.

That they get a free ride, based on the fact that their "name" is Japanese, just makes me sick.

If you want to see the true definition of a horrible interior........... just go to your local Nissan dealership.

 

Well the Frenchies have the most profitable car company in the world, even if you hate their interiors.

 

I have to disagree with you. In the first 5 years of a cars life, I would expect a Japanese car to hold up better than an American car in terms of rattles and things. However, have you ever looked at a 80's Honda compared to a similar 80's GM car? The GM is much more likely to still have it's pieces in proper place in my experience. I've never seen a honda or toyota from the 80's that isn't rusting out, either the clock or radio doesn't work, window motors don't work, power locks don't work, etc etc.

I think Guion makes a very good point personally, but it's obviously determinded by your frame of reference.(I don't know many people who care about maintaining cars, and even 80's GM and Ford cars hold up better than japanese cars of the same period with the same crappy maintenance)

 

Their European HQ is in France, but they are most definitely a Japanese company.

And if you think they're producing poor interiors, then I don't think you've been in a Nissan lately. I rode in a friends Maxima recently, and it was very nice. And the G35 is frickin' sweet, as is it's sibling the 350Z.