oil doesn't determine prices, refinery capacity does. the oil cartels don't have nearly as much to do with prices today as the refineries do.

i need to go find a tree hugger and kick him in the crotch.

 

Second that.

We used to have a couple refineries here in Indy. How many now = 0.

 

Hello!!!

Cartel is another word for MONOPOLY.

Many people get confused because there are several companies in the business, they thing they are all direct competitors al every level... not so when the supply of raw materials is single-sourced through a monopolistic organization that hides in the shadows behind the name brands we see on street signs.

 

I agree with your position re: the environmentalists, but there are MORE influences forcing these refineries offshore than treehuggers.

The companies that are/could build refineries are going offshore for economic reasons as well as environmental pressure from tree-huggers. Our government is making it economically more attractive to refine off-shore in other countries where you can dump, smoke, and leak all you want with no repercussions.

 

More economically attractive why? Because they don't have to deal with the environmental regs? Some (many) environmental rules are a good thing. If a company doesn't want to deal with the fines (or the expenses involved in making their processes cleaner to avoid the fines), well then sure it is more attractive to go elsewhere. But I don't think that is the intent behind the fines.

Of course, the government could offer tax incentives for the companies to stay here, but then they are accused of lining the pockets of the evil oil companies (like Bush needs any more of that crap).

I'm sure there is more to it than that, and I'm not very well versed on the subject, but your post implied that it is more attractive, due to gov't policy, to move elsewhere. I can't imagine a policy that is directly intended to encourage them to leave (and that isn't necessarily what you claimed), but I can certainly imagine how it would be easier and cheaper (and thus, more attractive) for a company to do business elsewhere so as to avoid dealing with the regs. Of course, the enviros would love to see policy to encourage those companies to not be here (or not exist at all), so they lobby for the laws and fines.

Kinda rambling/thinking as I typed that. How close am I?

 

I was wrong when I said 2000....

......it was 1999.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/contingency...it_report.html

 

This link paints a different picture. I sure as hell don't remember gas being below $1.00 per gallon RETAIL in the last 5 years, and that was in Indiana and Michigan. This link gives average retail prices in California back to 1996 (my Junior year of HS), week by week, based on surveys of 38 gas stations around the state.

It was close to a buck a gallon for regular at a few points (years back, during the winter months). None of these weeks show a time below $1.00 per gallon though (the lowest I see is about $1.05 on a few occassions).

 

We need new refineries because they are much more efficent than the current old ones. The treehuggers should want anew ones built, as long as the old ones are decommissioned.

I have no problem with not building more in the USA, the environment is very important, I enjoy the out doors as much as the next guy, but this would be the perfect thing for Mexico to make. That place is yucky anyways why not outsource refining too them?

 

maybe NAFTA would actually do some good for once?

 

Which should make you wonder who is really behind the limitation of refinery capacity.

There is a certain group that lobbies consistantly against relaxation of laws that would easily allow more refineries to get built. They have very deep pockets and a vested interest in limiting supply. The hint is that they aren't hippies...

 

unless you somehow had a hookup and payed wholesale prices that document is quoting, there is no way you would have had gasoline anywhere in the state for less than $1 (or less than $1.12 really) any time in the past 10-12 years. I've been in the state since summer of 1991 and started driving in 1995/96. So my memory is pretty clear of the gas price trends at the pump within the last 10 years because I had to pay for it out of my own pocket. And if there was ever a time it was below $1 it was a one off sale (like they used to have at Costco with lines to match the price, think half an hour to actually GET to the pump) or some other fluke kind of thing. I personally have never filled up with gasoline in CA for less than $1.20. Ever since 1995/1996 that is.

But anyway, so your point is not lost, yes, gasoline at one point in the late '90s was REALLY cheap by todays standards. And the question always remains, "what will tomorrow bring".

 

I find myself somewhat baffled by this as well as turned off to a new GM vehicle, particularly, HHR. Now, its gas mileage in and of itself isn't bad unfortunately, it isn't extraordinary either. GM isn't the only culprit in this game (Mazda comes to mind) but at this point with relief in energy costs seemingly unlikely, I need all the incentive I can get to not get on a list for a Prius. I'm not alone it seems...........

.....seems like the winds are are a'changin'........

To touch on GM quality, I remain unconvinced that GM is up to par with it's Japanese (&Korean?) competition. This is based on my own personal experiences as well as that of close family and friends. Want to prove it to me, GM? Put your warranty where your PR scribble is.

 

Another key hit to Sept sales (prolly the biggest IMO) is the lack of variety and stock in the lots.

In my area there just isnt much to choose from.

About all of the '05's are gone and there are just not many '06's to choose from. Often less than 3 for a model. The trucks are the only one's showing variety on the lot. If you are hunting an Impala or G6 or something like that there are usually 2 or less to choose from.





but anywhoo... back to y'alls usual GM doom n gloom snowballing and bandwagoning. lol

 

Will we see the employee pricing return anytime soon for the 06' models to restart good sales???

 

Man theres alot of thread hacking going on,

I am impressed with the altima sales, a minor refresh and sales are rolling up up there.

A longer warranty is in order, I was happy when I bought my maxima that it had a 5/60. Even though GM quality is improved what do they say about that? Toyotas are only 25% more durable.

I also concur that the aveo sucks too much gas. I think one version of the metro pulled 51mpg. But we must remember that crash standards have come a long way since then. It still should be in the 40-42mpg range. Cobalt should hit 34-35 with a stick.