cmutt

Anybody else frustrated with GM's pace? Ford seems to be running circles around EVERYBODY--not just my favorite car company.
Ask yourself where GM is in regards to ANY of the following:
1) Parallel-hybrid's. Sure, they aren't for everybody.. but take a look at the Fusion hybrid.. it delivers 40+ mpg in a family sedan - and does it at a price point where you could rationalize paying the extra cost up front to save money on the back end in gas savings. Even if you "broke even", ask yourself this: would you rather have your money go to a company like Ford - or a bend-you-over-rip-you-off-blind company like Exxon-Mobile? GM's got nothing like it - and as far as I've heard - nothing even planned. Instead we get the moonshot-and-way-to-expensive-Volt.

2) Exterior styling. Yes, it's subjective - but take the Taurus, the Fusion, or the recently-debuted Focus, and Ford cars each have a style that is distinct from anything else on the road. The F-150 is rather boxy, but it's rugged-looks certainly don't feature the 'oddness' of the latest Silverado design. Compare Ford's cars to the relatively pedestrian Malibu or Cruze. How about the Mustang? Ford went 'modern-retro' before the Camaro was even a wet-dream at Chevrolet. Ford isn't afraid to take risks.

3) Powertrains. Ford's got a brand-new 1.6l, 2.0l, 5.0l, 6.2l gas engines (and that's leaving out the direct-injected 3.5l). On top of that, Ford has the new 6.7l diesel, and the 1-year-old 2.5l-hybrid. How about the new dual-clutch 6-speed auto's? Now compare to GM: how old is the Ecotec? The Duramax? The HF 2.8/3.0/3.6 V6's? Is GM even working on a dual-clutch tranny? Sure, GM's made incremental improvements to each of their engines -- but when you build a brand-new-engine, you can accomodate the newest and best technologies - right from the get-go. Advantage: Ford.

4) Full-size SUVs: The Expedition offers fold-flat seats and costs about $2k LESS than the Suburban. I've got a Suburban: I know first-hand what a pain-in-the-rear-end it is to hoist the seat in and out. $20k minivans have had fold-flat seats for YEARS. My $40k+ SUV doesn't? WTF?!?
5) Driver interfaces. Look at Ford/Microsoft's Sync system. How about the new MyFord stuff? The dual-lcd screens in the hybrid? Ford is blazing the way for everybody in auto-technology. What does GM have? On-Star. How OLD is that? What have they done RECENTLY? Oh yeah: an iPhone app for the handful of people that own a Volt.

Don't get me wrong: I'm a GM fan through and through. 95% of the vehicles I've ever owned have been GM's.. and I currently own 2 GM vehicles right now. My venting is because I'm concerned GM isn't moving at the pace they need to. Anybody else share these frustrations? Somebody care to talk me off the ledge here?

WhiteHawk

GM's had nothing but Home Runs for the last year. Don't count them out in the 7th inning stretch. All their product plans got delayed beause of the economy (and then GM) crashing.

No doubt about it though, Ford is on a role. They mortgaged the company and went "All In" with products and powertrain. Remember, though, their currently quality numbers are based on the last generation of products. If they can hold it together for the next year while they launch everything, they will be on easy street. Having a visionary CEO definitely helps (Mulally).

-Geoff

Koz2

Unfortunately I have to agree with you on a lot of what you posted. Styling, features, techno gadgets are all areas where Ford seems stronger than GM lately. I have to disagree on the powertrains though. GM may have some 'older' tech, but those engines do very well. Compare Fords high tech EcoBoost found in the Taurus to the LS3 or L99 found in the Camaro. Ford advertises V8 power with fuel economy of a V6. GMs V8 puts out more power (as it should...) while getting almost the same fuel economy (17/25 SHO, 16/25 auto 16/24 manual for the Camaro). I don't think they have any boosted 4 cylinders out yet, but when they do, they'll have to benchmark the LNF, which is a tremendous engine. In the Cobalt SS it's rated at 22/30 while making 260hp/tq. The upgrade kit gets 280-290hp depending on model and 320-340ft-lbs, all out of an ecotec.

I'll agree again that it'd be nice to see GM follow Fords lead on the direct shift gearboxes in place of a traditional automatic.

As for the driver interface. My g/f just did some car shopping and decided on a new Focus. The first thing she said about it in describing it? "with Sync...". People love it, and it adds real perceivable value as an option to the car. No one says they just bought a Malibu "with Onstar". It's not as great a bargain when you have to pay a monthly fee to use an option that you can't even delete from the vehicle when ordering one from a dealer.

cmutt

Don't get me started on the LNF: 260hp and great gas mileage to boot! GM's had it in their stable for 3 years! They couldn't "migrate" the idea into a smaller 1.4l or 1.6l engine? How about dropping it into a mainstream vehicle (Malibu?) instead of the niche HHR/Solstice/Sky? Listen: 260hp is overkill for 90% of the general public. Putting the DI-turbo concept into action in a smaller displacement engine could *easily* slot you into that competitive 170hp-200hp bracket while grabbing great gas mileage to boot. Ford figured it out -- even marketed it with a brand name: "ecoboost". More people have heard of "ecoboost" than "LNF" - and the LNF motor has been out in the marketplace for 3 years. Another missed opportunity!

BTW, I've test-driven a hybrid Milan. I flogged it for 2+ hours and couldn't get it to mess up. The gas-electric switch is completely seamless. It's so ridiculously-well integrated, it's absolutely scary. Put it into a "conventional" (no lcd dash) vehicle, and I'd bet 95% of the public would never know they are driving a hybrid -- it's really that well put together. The worst thing I could say about the test drive was that the Milan felt a little heavy going fast into a turn -- probably because of the extra componentry. It wasn't at all horrible - but you'd notice it if you were doing what I was doing: driving it hard to try and see how the car behaved v.s. a traditional vehicle. The electric motor would make a little noise going downhill in reverse as well (can't say I'm not thorough) - but was absolutely quiet as a mouse propelling the vehicle forward. Besides that, the hybrid's don't have the rear-seat pass through into the trunk because of the battery (which also takes up a bit of your trunk space). Overall, a really pleasant vehicle. Wish GM had something in this segment as it looks to be only growing.

On another note, isn't a bit depressing that the next-gen small block isn't rumored to hit the market for another couple of years? Chrysler's HEMI 3 is supposed to hit the market before that and Ford's new stuff is out this-year. Seems like GM's last to the party again.

99SilverSS

Ford is flexing their muscles and taking advantage of their close domestic rivals having to recover from bankruptcy. But they have to. Ford mortgaged just about every asset they couldn't sell to get the loan they are living on. They can't wait around they have to attack with product and they must make money or they will end up in the same position GM was in last year. I don't see that happening and think they will be just fine but they can't sit back and save money for later. Timing is a lot of business and so is luck and Ford has both right now. I applaud them because in the face of what is really epic times especially in the automotive sector they have done all the right things. We as car lovers have to give credit for how Ford has planned their attack: product first! (Ranger not withstanding ) How many times have we heard XYZ company talk about how product drives the business and yet never really deliver. I think 2010 is Ford's year.

This isn't to say GM can't do the same and really if they are to survive they must. I think they will. The bailout and reorganization is a blessing in disguise. They did have too many brands and too many dealers and too much capacity for their market share. The New GM is also a lot better off financially. They have shed a lot of their legacy commitments and for the first time in a long time they can just focus on the auto business. It's hard to compare them to Ford because GM has had such a rough year in 2009. GM has always been compared to a oil tanker or freight train in that every maneuver takes a long time and a lot of room to complete well it also takes a long time to get going again after being stopped even if they are now a lighter train or smaller ship.

Derek M

The statement that GM's diesel powertrains being lack luster doesn't hold water.

Ford owned this market, and Ford has lost a considerable amount of this market over the last decade. A brief view of the last decade.

Ford has been through four diesel designs over the last decade. Fords need was pushed by product that failed at an alarming rate. The durability and reliability of the tried and true 7.3 hasn't been realized since it departed. The 6.0 was a huge loss in general quality and reliability over the previous 7.3. The current 6.4 hasn't been much better than the 6.0. Now Ford is onto the new 6.7. Over the time Fords diesel market share has eroded. There was a loss in consistent quality that allowed GM and Dodge to grab additional share at the expense of Ford.

GM owned 5% of the diesel market in 1999. By 2002 GM owned 30% and have been hovering around this position ever since. Several variations and continuous upgrades have been made to this engine to keep it class competitive or leading. The LB7, LLY, LBZ, LMM, LML are all variations of the same design that have proven market successful without the seriously noted issues of Ford/Navistars previous designs. The current LML meets the new 2010 emiisions with what's expected to be a class leading 390HP/700TQ.

GM certain has it's downfalls, but one of the highlights over the past decade has been the Duramax diesel.

WhiteHawk

Don't forget, GM just had to delay their light duty diesel too.

-Geoff

cmutt

let me clarify: I wasn't stating that GM's Duramax wasn't competitive; matter of fact, I think just the opposite: they probably have the best light-duty diesel in the marketplace currently. My point is this: with a new, from the ground-up design, you have a chance to build in the latest and greatest everything. You can use the latest and greatest computer modeling, you can design an engine that is the quietest, smoothest, best-breathing, most powerful, and most efficient design possible. The new 6.7l diesel should be more than competitive - it should raise the bar (as every new design should -- regardless of mfgr). Ford isn't doing this with just one engine: they've got virtually an entire fleet of new powertrains debuting. And where's GM at? That was my point.

Derek M

Why didn't you buy the Expedition over the Suburban since you have serious disdain for the rear passenger seating configuration?

GM is still the leader of the full size utility market somehow without this feature. Sure it would be nice if it had them. The hang up with GM's design is the live rear axle, it can't put the feature in until IRS is implemented.

GM doesn't have truck platform that supports IRS at the moment. Not sure if they are moving this direction or not, as GM's play with 8 passenger utility is on a crossover platform.

GM has a host of full size cross overs that seat 8 that have fold flat rear seats. Ford doesn't offer this angle.

This seems like splitting hairs really. Manufacturers tend to offer flavors of product the others don't.

So far the market hasn't expressed itself enough in GM's eyes that this must be a feature on a BOF SUV. Right, wrong, indifferent who knows. Go back to the simple fact GM still owns the full size utility market and it's easy for one to toss up your hands as to why.

I don't guess I'm all that enamored about voice sending email, text, and the like while driving. I still value the driving experience and a good stereo over the absolutely latest gismo feature integration with mobile phone and car.

Onstar doesn't seem that valuable until it's called upon in an emergency situation. Then all of a sudden it's invaluable to those it's saved or protected.

Geoff Chadwick

The LNF is the last hurrah of that family of Ecotecs. The future engines are all the next generation, including the engines coming up in the Cruze and Orlando. They are all more advanced than the LNF. Also, as GM powertrain is near and dear to my heart I'd have to say you're not correct in just pummeling them senseless. GM powertrain has been leading the big 3 for over a decade - and Ford is jumping on their moment because they either do or die a worse death than GM nearly could have had.

However, on mainstream brands (Ford versus Chevrolet) I agree. Styling, gadgets, quality, etc. Every new GM is great - but I just think every new Ford is even better. I don't count GM out yet though. The management and finances are still in flux and still have too much "old GM" in the blood. Things will get better.

Derek M

All manufactures delayed their light duty diesel introductions (Ford, GM, and Dodge). They are currently on indefinite hold. Number one reason, Emission regulation. There's been another change to the regulations that's just four years out, 13 states have adopted these same rules that would make these diesels new diesels obsolete in just four years. Hard to swallow if your a manufacturer considering all the investment and technology that's been put into these engines only to have the rules changed drastically again where it makes this round of technology and investment defunct in four years.

Many regulators simply don't want diesel to be part of our fuel efficiency solution. With the inconsistency across state lines and a target for emissions in near future that keeps changing, diesel has a likelihood of becoming absent from the US market.

Amazingly as Ford, GM and others offer diesels in Europe that make up about 50% of the entire vehicle market.

cmutt

I didn't buy the Expedition because I'am and always will be a GM fan.. but why should I have to make excuses for GM's products? Remember this: Ford's new-product introductions--the Fusion, the Taurus, and all those new powertrains -- all of those didn't just happen in the last 12 months while GM was fighting bankruptcy.. those things take YEARS to engineer and build-out. Ford was planning and executing while GM was fiddling. Isn't it at all frustrating to anybody else to see Ford out-executing GM? Back up 3 years ago and Ford was in similar (if not worse) financial straits as GM. At that time Ford put in place the product-plan to get them to where they are at today.

BTW, don't think for a minute that I'm all doom and gloom about GM. GM's still got some wonderful things going for it. Stuff like the current-gen Equinox give me hope for GM's future.. but back to my original comment: what about GM's pace? Just take a look at how fast Ford is executing -- across virtually all fronts - and compare it to our beloved GM. It disgusts me that GM hasn't better positioned itself: be it styling, engines, transmissions, or the "wow" technology.

Derek M

Ford has a much smaller line-up thus why it seems like everything is new. Because it is. F-150, SuperDuty, Taurus, Fusion, Mustang, Focus. All new or fresh from MCE.

GM's newly launched vehicles are well accepted and diservingly so.

Lacrosse
SRX
CTS Wagon
CTS Coupe
CTS-V Coupe
Equinox
Terrain

Near in the pipeline are:
Spark
Cruze
Orlando
Volt
Aveo
Aveo RS
Cadillac XTS

Even vehicles that were launched years ago, Malibu, CTS, Camaro are still doing well. GM's doing fine, could they be doing more sure, but I don't think it's anything to despair or fly the white flag about.

Ford has pretty much shown their entire hand in a short order, obviously they rate of new introductions won't continue.

No single car brand or company can or will do everything and match feature for feature with only best traits of every vehicle produced. GM's not sleeping at the wheel.

Z28x

I disagree that GM isn't improved and working at a record pace to improve products. Everything new I've seen from the new GM has been great. They are doing an Imported 2011 Regal then moving it to North America for MY2012, old GM would have just waited for 2012.

Despite that, Ford is still out pacing everyone in the entire industry. The pace of improvement is incredible. It is like they have the engineers working 24/7.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Honda and Toyota seem to be falling from grace. Especially Honda. I'm not impressed with anything new they have. Insight and that new car in Detroit are garbage. Won't belong before Hyundai is the new Honda.

SSbaby

You saved me a lot of typing effort, there!

GM's GenV engine is not that far away and we look to play leapfrog again...