WhiteHawk

Yet another reason that it was a horrible article. Without knowing what comparable retention rates are, the numbers don't mean anything either.

-Geoff

Z28x

How do you two feel about the 2012 Regal GS?

JakeRobb

I think it's a great looking car, but not sporty in the sense that would interest the enthusiast buyer that was previously looking at Trans Am, GTO, and G8.

OutsiderIROC-Z

I MIGHT be interested in a new Buick, when I am 40 years older than I am now.

formula79

Well..i think a lot of people here don't get it..which is to be expect that. Pontiac was for buyers who wanted more expressive cars. That was how a GM exec explained it to me. I am gonna bet most fo the people saying just buy a Chevy..and an LTZ trim is sporty enough to replace Pontiac were never Pontiac buyers anyway. If you look at Pontiac circa 2001..all the cars were basically rebadged Chevy's..but much more expressive and aggresively styled. They sold very well. If you look at the lineup Pontiac had when it was cancelled..the cars simply were not "expressive". Pontiac's were supposed to look like they belonged on the racetrack. Even the old Sunfire looked like a mini Firebird. The G3, G5, Vibe, G6, and even G8 to an extent were middle of the road styling wise. When you have a brand whose main selling point is styling...if you screwup the styling..you are screwed. For Pontiac to work..the styling has to be right..and when they bowed to the mags complaining about "Boy racer" styling..they were done for. I know we hate the whole term "brand management"..but Pontiac's death is a perfect case study of failed brand management.

In 1999 did a Grand Am buyer also look at a Malibu? I think not. However in 2009, I could see a G6 owner also considering a Malibu.

Buick..however is not a replacement for Pontiac..and I don't think it is being marketed that way. Right now I think GM is trying to push Buick in that import..slightly nicer than Chevy role that both Saturn and Olds were pushed towards. We see how well it worked for those brands.

Z28Wilson

I get that. And I wouldn't blow sunshine up you-know-where with you and Jason and others who miss Pontiac dearly either. Right now, Chevy has attractive vehicles but they are far from wild or Pontiac-esque. Yes, some would say boring. But Chevy can still offer expressive styling and it wouldn't be all that out of place in its showrooms.

Pontiac sold lots of Grand Ams with the cladding and pre-2004 Grand Prixs, but I always got the sense that they still weren't a big enough contributor to the bottom line. Especially when there's a cost to be paid for tooling up and doing different interior and exterior styling.

Again, I want to see someone present a business case for Pontiac that really makes sense other than "take a Malibu, style it like a Pontiac, ???, profit!"

formula79

That business case worked for a long time...and several other brands are built on similar ideas.

1965GP

I am a huge Pontiac fan and agree that GM has been producing better cars but I would never consider an Impala LTZ as an option. I have actually paid extra not to have one of those as a rental (granted- some may say the same about a GP).

I think the charger nailed it and proved there is a market for rwd. You can get an entry level cloth int 6 cyl, an RT with a hemi, a bright daytona, or a serious SRT. Prices go from entry level 23k (guessing here) to what- 50k?

Getting back on point- i think we can all agree pontiac was a damaged brand. Pontiac at one time had aggressive styling that was too much for some which is the same reason others loved it. GM currently doesn't have anything to fill that void. Dodge has done a very nice job stepping into place from the 200 on up.

Just my opinion but I am the target customer they lost

guionM

Actually, that's saying a lot more than "one thing" to me, but just the same I don't see what point you're trying to make.

Trucks are what kept GM afloat until the market for them crashed.

The labor GM is paying on small cars and trucks is the same as what is being paid by everyone else save possibly Ford.

Sports sedans don't pay bills, volume sedans for the (to steal your term) "masses" is what brings in money regarding cars.

I suspect Camaro buyers might have something to say on your stating GM has a lack of a sports coupe for the masses.

As for you saying the new GM=bankruptcy, I'm here to help, so let me break things down for you:

1. Bankruptcy=no money to run a business or pay creditors.

2. GM is now not only making no profits, but is making some of the biggest profits they have made in a very long time.

3. If GM is making a lot of profits, they are in no danger whatsoever of bankruptcy as long as this continues.

Perhaps women make the carbuying decisions in your house.

BTW, listen, you can't have it both ways. You can't go on a rail saying GM makes no sports sedans & sports coupes (both false by the way), after flipping over saying that women make all the car buying decisions. Women largely buy crossovers, and practical sedans (ie: G6s, Impalas, Accords, etc...) while men largely buy sports coupes and sports sedans. By following your train of thought there, you are advocating the very vehicles that would actually bankrupt GM after saying the lack of those vehicles would.


1. Women are practical buyers. Far more so than men. Studies prove it. Women rank style following function. Look around you. How many women do you see driving rather bland but practical cars. Women also tend to be safety conscious. They shop by "5-star" ratings, "Consumer Reports", and tend to research vehicles far more than men.

2. Men are the creatures who are "style conscious". We want to impress. Not just women, but other men. Family members. Neighbors. People at work.

3. Just about half of all Mazda buyers are women. Pontiac was well into the 70 percent range. Just under 80 if I remember correctly (I can look it up later if you wish). To put that into perspective, more women bought Pontiacs than men bought Camaros.

4. Even so, the point about women buyers is moot when Pontiac was only selling about 30% of it's entire production to the retail market anyway. About 70% was going to fleets and rental agencies at not much more than break even price. Sure the GTO & G8 (and add in the GXP model of the Grand Prix) went mostly to men. But considering the numbers those vehicles sold at and the volume Pontiac was giving away to non retail customers, those cars weren't even a drop in an ocean in sales.

5. Finally, the question of turning Pontiac into a "Niche" brand.

Think about that for a moment.

That niche brand would have included the G8GT &/or GXP, the Solstice, and maybe, just maybe the G6 convertible hardtop, and it would have been sold in Buick showrooms at low production numbers.

Now, consider everything that's wrong with that idea.

a. The Solstice was a few years away from being killed off. There was an idea to save it by moving it to Bowling Green and restyling it. But guess what would have happened to the price. However, that point is moot anyway. Look at how much engineering GM shed in restructuring. They're taxed to the hilt squeezing a new Corvette out with their huge new vehicle schedule. A low-to-no profit Solstice wouldn't have had a chance at renewal.

b. The G6 was already in old age, and would have had to be restyled by now (Malibu has been restyled twice since the G6 came out). Would GM spend scarce taxpayer money on a single model of a car like that?

c. However, the G8 could have survived on and carried the Pontiac name. And that's where the whole idea of a niche brand becomes incredibly pathetic.

You would have a Pontiac name on a single car that was imported from another country just to keep the name alive. A division that had decades of history, many historic nameplates, a brand that was General Motors 2nd largest brand, and for a time the 3rd largest car brand in the United States, reduced to nothing more than a badge on a car that's sold (outside of Australia and New Zealand) everywhere else on the planet Earth as a Chevrolet.

The niche brand idea was a horrible idea.

GM mismanagement ran Pontiac into the ground to the point where it couldn't be saved.

Let it rest in peace.

Z28x

GM definitely needs a car to replace Grand Am coupe and Cobalt coupe.

formula79

I am not sure if Guy's Pontiac female numbers are correct..here are some of the data I found.

Pontiac is not on this list..but it is newer...
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-96134979.html

Here is one from 2006ish. Pontiac is quoted as being ahead, but the number is 53%...not 70 or 80%. And considering the G6 was the brands volume car at this time..it is possible.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Male-vs.-F...nces&id=321843

I would just like to see better numbers because I know Pontiac was not selling Mini's or New Beatles.

Indelibility

That poor car never stood a chance. It's styled perfectly, but its slower than they promised and they ditched the all-wheel drive...

soul strife

I see Mazda as the business case. They have polarizing style that some love and some hate but, they are not boring. They have bold styling, handle better then the average car in whatever class and have powerfule motor. (Nissan could probably fit this as well)

These were all things that Pontiac did at one time and should have continued doing. Using available chasis and engines is okay as it drops cost of design. It's not like GM doesn't have a nice plethora of engine choices around the globe.

All this discussion is mute at this point. Ponitac is not coming back. So, if you liked your Grand AM or Grand Prix, maybe it's time to defect to a Nissan Altima/Maxima or a Mazda 3/6. Those will give you what you want in every category save American nameplate.

Chrome383Z

I was never fond of Pontiac styling, in fact I hated it. Even the 80s/90s models. I'm glad that drain isn't on GM anymore. I did like the G8, but it should have been a Chevy. And yes I have a 2005 Grand Prix (company car). It's ugly, interior is horribly designed and falling apart, the drivetrain is solid after 150k and hasn't left me stranded I guess if there's anything good to say about it.

Will be replaced with a 12' Malibu, 200, or Sonata.

Z28Wilson

True, then again, Mazda and Nissan don't have the 800 lb gorilla in the same company known as Chevrolet. Those other two brands can be aggressively styled and sold as the company's flagship brands without any competing alternatives in the same portfolio (Ford has sold off almost all of its stake in Mazda).

That is why I say, Pontiac doesn't bring anything to GM's table that Chevrolet theoretically couldn't. And that's a problem.