I still believe that GM was INCHING toward a Chevy-Saturn-Cadillac line up in NA.

Pontiac was a goner (the writing has been on the wall for a LONG time) anyway unfortunately. The first tangible evidence we had of this fact is when Saturn started reporting to the same people as the B/P/GMC group. I think the plan was to move Saturn into the B/P/GMC channel at the expense of Pontiac.

Had this plan worked, GM would've benefitted with a VOLUME middle market brand that actually made money (unlike Pontiac) and had a better image.

After that, Buick (which was on it's way out anyway until China boomed, IMO) would've been extinguished as GM built up the transaction prices of Saturn.

This would've created a 3 tier set up across the globe, for the most part.

I guess GMC would've remained as a companion to Saturn (until it fell out of style or GM mismanaged it like they do everything else)

*** It really bothers me that GM was too ignorant to utilize SO MUCH POTENTIAL that all of their various brands had to cover THE ENTIRE market instead of 60% of it.

Oh well, I am excited to see how GM does with the simplified and arguably stronger set up (Chevy/Buick-GMC/Caddy) And I am excited that Pontiac *might* get a second chance in one way or another.

 

Attracting and keeping younger buyers is the key to the success of any business, since they may purchase your products for their entire life. As I pointed out in the article, now GM has only one brand that appeals to younger buyers, Chevy.

Eliminating Saturn with 450 dealers is one thing, turning the lights out on 2,600 Pontiac dealers is crazy. All GM would have had to say is that they are currently short on cash, when they have more funding available, they would expand Pontiac's lineup. I think customers would have accepted that. They alienated a lot of loyal customers who will now shop other manufacturer's brands. I would hate to own a Buick/GMC dealer once Pontiac is shut down, not exactly a volume selling combination.

 

Toyota you could say has 2 because of Scion. Which actually appeals to many 40+ age buyers, which wasn't seen in its creation.

Brands that appeal to young buyers...
Honda has 1 brand.
Nissan has 1 brand.
Ford has 1 brand.
Chrysler, maybe 2. Dodge has 1 small car... Jeep has only SUVs. I could see lots of problems here because of a lack of small cars... enter Fiat.
VW has 1.
Kia/Hyundai... I guess both of them might. 2.


So what is the big deal about only have 1?

 

None of those other brands you mentioned control 20% of the US market, like GM, the market leader, does today. There are a ton of Grand Am/G6 coupe and Grand Prix owners who will be buying new cars, what alternatives does GM have to offer them?

 

Buick makes money because it is basically nothing, and has not been invested in for a long time. Plus it has a captive market in the elderly who have bought them for every. I am willing to bet when GM gets done dumping money to expand it..and Buicks STILL do not sell...it will quickly become unprofitable.



Rebadges- G3, G5, and G6. The G3 does not belong in a Pontiac showroom. The G5 only comes in a coupe, and does not have the hot engine...there is no reason to buy one. The G6 is based on a last gen Malibu and is obsolete.

That being said, Solstice, G8, and Vibe are certainly not rebadged Chevy's.

In all honestly, the reason Pontiac has failed is BECAUSE they are no longer rebadged Chevy's...and the brand has too many low cost or low volume niche vehicles. Go back to 2000 and Pontiac sold like hotcakes and made money with a line up full of rebadges. The Solstice, Vibe, G8, G5, and G3 togethor do not sell what the Grand Prix did in a good year. It gets lost on a Chevy board sometimes, but Pontiac has always been about people who want more style or emotion in their vehicles. Chevy leghumpers go on about how more women bought Pontiacs...but fact of the matter is..there are more women in the world...and guess what, they are more likely to care about style and pay a little more for it.

The real reason we are here today is, GM took the money it made when Pontiac was profitable and plowed it into trucks and Saturn. Then when they did not have the money to redo Pontiac they started letting the bread and butter cars die and plugged the holes with low volume models, or bland models with new names. Not one Pontiac nameplate from 2000 is still in production today....that is a huge issue. What GM should have done is rebadged the new Malibu as a Grand Prix or a Grand Am to get the updated Epsilon in Pontiac showrooms, and cancelled the G6. Design the car squarely as a Mazda6 killer. And anyone who thinks the new LaCrosse and this car would compete needs to put down the crack pipe. Pontiac buyers do not buy Buicks. How many people sat in a BPG showroom a year ago and seriously thought...do I get the 2008 Grand Prix, or 2008 LaCrosse?

Notice..the brands you listed that make money have the least investment in their current product lines. That is why they are profitable.

As for Saturn...in all honestly it should not be competing with an GM brand. The whole reason Saturn was started is to be the brand that competed with imports and no one knew was owned by GM. As soon as GM integrated it in, and made it clear that Saturn was just another GM brand the brand became redundent.

In closing, I just want to point out that is in 2005 I made a post that in 5 years, Pontiac would be closed, and Buick would be getting a new product line..I would have been laughed off the board. The problem is, GM let Mazda and Nissan start building better Pontiac's than Pontiac did. Imagine if the G6 was a car like the Mazda 6, or if Pontiac had something like the Mazda 3.

 

Pontiac is also basically nothing. Not much investment there. Look at the rebadges of Chevy, Holden, and Opel. Pontiac's performance image is gone because Chevy has more performance. At least Buick isn't going after the same market. Hopefully Buick's turnaround of product will make them relevant to more than blue hairs again. They got me to buy an Enclave, I bought it at the ripe old age of 28.


The G6 is off of the current gen Malibu...

Besides that though, the only thing that Pontiac has in volume are the Chevy rebadges, everything else is niche. You also forgot the Torrent, but it also is a terrible Pontiac so who cares. My point is, you have 4 models, that are Chevy, and they carry the volume. What is Pontiac (I don't include the Vibe here), sells in small numbers.


GM has been losing market share for a long time. This hasn't not been because they don't have enough vehicles and variants to sell. It has been because people want better quality vehicles. GM takes too many resources to redesign the same dash for the US market 3 and sometimes 4 times per automobile they make. If this was 1 or 2 times, you could have better engineering and better quality parts. Style has changed, and many people do not like Pontiac's style today.


The new Malibu was a Pontiac G6 first. It was then a Saturn Aura, and finally a Malibu. Pontiac had its car first. Now the car is a rental queen (probably the single biggest problem for Pontiac, its volume was in fleet sales).

I agree with you on the name plates and GM investing in trucks. Missing name plates are a huge mistake.

Also, I don't think anyone said Pontiac buyers would buy Buicks. I for one do not. I also do think the new LaCrosse will be a successful vehicle. It looks top notch, many features are available at a good price. I am very interested in it for one, and I know others who are as well. Hopefully GM hits a home run with it. It isn't necessarily for Pontiac buyers.

Pontiac had some performance products, and development. It had a G6 coupe, manual, GTO, Solstice, and G8. Which aren't bad vehicles.

But again, this goes back to GM having to invest, in Chevy, Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, GMC, Buick, and Cadillac, in the US alone. That is too many brands. This is why GM is in the problem they are in. Fewer brands, fewer product lines, better products. Buick will stay alive because it has better margins, can sell in smaller volumes, and will make money.

I agree on Saturn as well. When it became more Chevy's, there was no more point.

I agree on the Pontiac not having cars that weren't more like Pontiac, especially in the Mazda 3 direction. That was probably one of the biggest problems.

 

People don't often buy the same vehicle over and over again because needs change, but some do. For these owners, the best option right now is a Malibu. Will that make all of them happy, no. Will all of them buy GM again, no. But that isn't the point. GM needs to make money. To do that, they need better vehicles. To do that, they need not to offer the same car 3 times in a good enough fashion as opposed to a top of the line model. GM make lose some market share short term, but in the long term they will be better for it.

 

How is Buick in business then?

 

Something is a little strange with GM's plan for Pontiac's closure pushed out to 2010. Why does it get special treatment unlike Opel, Vaxhual Saab, Hummer, Saturn? Why is Pontiac not up for sale?

 

Probably because Pontiac is completely integrated into the rest of GMNA. No engineering, no dealership network. There's really nothing to sell but the trademarks.

In Hummer and Saturn's case, they are buying dealers.

 

Flomotion nailed it, Derek.

Opel is GM Europe. It has it's own engineering, product development, and is the supplier of models and components for Saab. Vauxhall is essentially nothing more than the marketer of Right Hand Drive Opels for Great Britian.

Saab is more a self financing entitlement Sweedish operation that makes cars to fund itself. The Sweedish government is extremely eager to keep Saab operating instead of having to assume it's liabilities itself.

Hummer has it's own distinct model lineup and is IMO more a image liability than a financial one, and GM want's someone else to run it.

Those intrested in Saturn is more intrested in Saturn the marketing arm than Saturn the car. Under the plan GM has for spinning off Saturn, GM would continue to supply current Saturn vehicles for the remainder of their life cycle (perhaps mere months in the case of the Sky), and the buyer would be free to find other brands or makes (likely European, and possibly but not limited to Opel) to sell in their showrooms. If the buyer wanted to sell Seat, Lancias, or any other Euro brand not currently sold in the US under the Saturn name, they would be free to. Again, what they are buying is a marketing agency and dealer network.

Meanwhile, outside of the G6, Pontiac has no unique models. Pontiac's dealer network isn't a stand alone network. Pontiac has no vehicle development or engineering branch. The only thing anyone buying Pontiac would get would be rights to use the Pontiac name on an automobile.

You would essentially forking over a massive amount of money simply to sell cars that GM developed for the next few years, or pay GM even more massive amounts of money to do the engineering work for you on replacements.

Pontiac isn't an Opel or even Saturn.

 

I agree... And sadly, I'm one of those buyers.

Chevrolet has 3 maybe 4 models that appeal to me. Otherwise, my money goes elsewhere now.

The only problem with that is; unless GM gets it's ducks in a row, Buick and Cadillac will once again be competing for the same customer. (Given the new, cheaper SRX, the nicer than CTS interior Lacrosse and the planned Cadillac Epsilon )

Under the new viability plan (that included the phase out of Pontiac) GM will stop producing Saturns at the end of this year. (i.e. there will be no 'model year run out')