Great post.

I'm alittle surprised at the G8's sales figures. They've decreased steadily every month since it's intro. Not a good sign. Guess the timing for it wasn't right - maybe a couple of years too late.

As for Pontiac in general, I think you are right on. I hope it's not too late for Pontiac, I suspect that it might be though.

 

Thanks. I created a new thread for this because I think it's a point worth making.

I believe you were the one who pointed out that Pontiac had a souped up G6 in the works when the GTO came about. It's more and more clear that this was the wrong choice, the wrong direction.

I also am surprised at the G8. I think it would have done better with better conditions, but the bottom line was that it would never have replaced the Grand Prix's volume. We can talk nitch all we want, but when a car's replacement isn't making a tenth of what it's predecessor did in volume, something is wrong.

Pontiac is a sporty, value priced brand. This was perfectly clear through the 70's, 80's, and early 90's. Then everything went to hell. First Zarella decided it could be a truck brand (that idea seems even dumber now than it did then). Then Lutz came in, and thought Pontiac was a bargain BMW. It never was. It's a Nissan or Mazda. In fact, it's the original Nissan or Mazda.

I also agree that it may be too late. Just another misjudgement that GM management can regret.

 

As much as I love the G8, I have to admit that it's a car that should have been out back in 2004 or 2005. That was the year the new Mustang, the Chrysler 300, and the Dodge Magnum took the US by storm. This was the same time GM-North America finally got off their collective butts and decided to divert a fraction of what they were spending on trucks and invest in RWD again.

Because of the length of time it takes to develop automobiles, we get the G8 4 years after the crest of the V8, rear drive, performance-as-a-mainstream-sedan days end with the advent of $4 gas, a US dollar that's only worth half as much on the world market, a stock market that has lost over a trillion dollars in value, and 10-25% home depreciation. What would have been a home run in 2004 gets to the party just when everyone is leaving except a few hardcore people who don't realize the party's over.

Depending on the price, the G8 "El Camino" is on my short list when I buy my next car in about a year (providing the economy doesn't implode, then a new car will be the last thing I'll use my money for). IMHO, the G8 GT is the best sedan value around (since V8 Chargers start at 2-3K more). Pontiac's Solstice will have a new lease on life thanks to the new targa coupe in what is probably the best sense of timing in GM history... a 4 cylinder sports car that can now be considered a commuter car.

But outside of the G6 and the newly restyled Vibe, there isn't much in Pontiac(/Buick) showrooms that is volume oriented enough to keep Pontiac from falling under the axe if GM suddenly becomes convinced to lose another division.

 

not an attempt to throw cold water on the above theory, I don't know, there could be something there. but you have two attempts that have outstanding circumstances which should be noted. GTO competeed against new Mustang and G35 [along with perrenial 3-series coupe] both of which were notable styling successes so much so they had tons of success well in to lifecycle; GTO otoh was a styling disaster, introducing nothing new or unique, whilst being quietly conservative and handsome....not something helping the Pontiac badge at the time. Now we have G8 in an incredible market...gas prices way up, no mass market fuel efficient option, the V6 is even an upscale segment with expectations for lesser gas mileage. there has been very very limited marketing for G8. the fact that sales have gone down since intro shows one thing: pent up demand from enthusiasts and people aware/attending to car market. there has been absolutely no follow through on whatever limited product rollout advertising was done. it's like a movie that was never even advertised to begin with doing decently and then slowly fading despite absolutely no advertising. I'd call that movie a sleeper. I don't think G8's situation is one we can accurately gauge without taking those factors.

Now, the theory presented is one worth going over. the question to me would be why though? Pontiac has competed successfully in the past in the expensive sedan category. there is nothing bigger than the rolling advertisement, the friendly neighbor's endorsement when it comes to convincing buyers.evidence suggests Pontiac has a buyer base there that is dormant and currently considering other sporty options because they just don't see Pontiac in the same light. perhaps many are still turned off by what they view as cheesy styling [g6, imo] or plasticky, cheap appearances/ambience [g6, again].

the car leading the message for Pontiac is the G6 that is completely overlooked by the driving press; they just don't consider it a car worthy and neither do many buyers. and yet it succeeds. people are drawn to pontiac's sporty style, more aggressive tone, extroverted image, yet equally or greater numbers are turned off by the accurate perception of unfinished cars, lacking sophistication. if the message car is the G6, it should be no wonder the brand as a whole flounders. when chevy released malibu, it has now translated into a more upscale feel for the brand as a whole, it has positively reflected on chevy, and now the expectations for the upcoming cars have changed, and more people will look at it.

 

realistically, there can never be this expectation. Not in a million years. The G8 has not been advertised as the Gran Prix replacement; it's not even being advertised. the pitch though is what's important, the pitch for G8 was the V8+RWD+sports sedan under $30k, and that's the message that went forth, only through the magazines. I never saw one commercial for it, though there were a couple that circulated here and on the internet, so I assumed some were being shown. I pay attention though, and I never once saw a commercial; advertising on TV was minimal at best, non-existant would be more realistic.

to the point though, Gran Prix was there mass market, excitement sedan. G6 has taken that position, as it now straddles and tries to do what Grand Am and Gran Prix did, but effectively it's really more of a Gran Prix, since it's almost as big and bigger by a lot than Grand AM. G8 is nowhere near there mass market sedan, it's being marketed to me at least as an anomoly, something totally different.

lastly, there's most obviously pricing. but message and the resources that message has in the first place are also drastically different. there's just no marketing for G8, same with Astra. both are money losers, it's obvious GM wants nothing to do with them now.

 

If you think the G8's timing is bad, wait another year for the Camaro ... most of the stuff you mention will likely only get worse. Except with the Camaro, it's a good 5 years late to its party (that being the retro-styled pony car party). Had it debuted in 2003 it would likely have done very well; in 2010, it's not looking so good.

 

I agree with you 100 percent on marketing. I don't know how GM expects to sell anything if no one knows cars like the Astra and G8 don't exist.

To my point though, it seems like GM is intent on forcing the issue with their brands rather than really assessing where their natural audience is and targeting that audience. This is why Saturn is selling cars priced from $20,000-40,000 rather than small cars priced between $14,000-25,000. It's why Pontiac is selling pricey niche vehicles when people seemed perfectly happy to buy sporty sedans from them priced around $25,000.

 

You guys must not be basketball fans. The G8 was plastered all over the big dance this past March.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...etter-business

 

I completely agree with you there. G6 has not hit the right chords with Pontiac buyers. With G6 and the Astra, Pontiac and Saturn are not hitting thier core buyers as strongly as they need to. How can they expand thier base if they can't attract thier base? It's not aggressive enough, not sporty enough, and doesn't live up to the standards for interior design/quality, so they would naturally gravitate towards Altima which has now become a much bigger seller than when Grand Am was around and that car was a very big seller. they also need an American manufactured G8, or a stretched Epsilon [shudder the thought] to come in at a price around 25k starting point. so Alpha looks good to me as their sporty sedan and a sports coupe like Firebird...beginning in the $20k price range. so long as the car is small and sporty, and at least with the sedan you get a punchy efficient 4 cyl and an efficient faster model as well.

Pontiac is still very basic, but thier image and pricing should be more upscale than the more generic Chevrolet.

to the point on G8 being in basketball....well that covers young [and older] guys, but what about the rest. traditionally women have been big Pontiac buyers, ironically since they always have portrayed a masculine image. chicks dig the aggressive look. but where's the follow through? there's no advertising whatsoever anywhere. Compared to Malibu which still gets great ads everywhere, new and updated ads with fresh messages. translation: Malibu is thier volume bread and butter and G8 is less than seconds.

 

The Aura is a very good looking car. The interior kills it. It needs a new dash and better seat fabrics.

The Astra is a very good looking car. The interior kills it. It needs a new dash and better interior appointments.

The G8 was sunk by gas prices. I don't have the data but I would bet that all V-8 powered sedans have seen a reduction in sales

The Camaro could be in real trouble if this economic downturn continues.

 

I have some of the same concerns for the Camaro. This may not be the right particular car for this particular time.

I just hope that enough pent up demand exists for the Camaro, to sell brisky long enough, for the next gen car to be approved.

 

I think you're being a little harsh here. G8 ads were shown during about every commercial break during march madness basketball. In the same time frame i also saw the ads in a few other shows. Since march ended though, i'd agree, the ads have died.

 

G8 suffered from poor distribution and a general lack of availability. Add to that a significant number of dealers reverting to the old $5,000 "market adjustment" stickers. I wanted to buy one. Couldn't find a black/black GT within 300 miles... ??? Admittedly, 08 MY was a short one (they started building 09s in March) so that had a marked affect on availability. They messed up the V6/V8 split, too, as there seemed to be plenty of base cars (with rebates!) but virtually no V8s left. Go figure.

 

i doubt it. in fact i'd bet against it. i have a firm belief there will be no 6th gen.

 

You could be right.

But my sense is that GM still sees Camaro as an important brand for Chevy, especially going forward.

But I still see 5th gen sales struggling after initial demand is met. It's simply the wrong product to have right now. And I hope GM's product planners realize that, and don't just crucify the "Camaro Brand" over it.

We'll see.