GM Death Watch 63
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: GM Death Watch 63
I want to reemphasize this again since I think some people missed Doug's post about GM's response to Delphi:
1. Delphi's management made no attempt to fix proplems they have known about for some time.
2. Delphi management gave themselves hefty bonuses.
3. Delphi management layed out an insult of an offer of under $10 per hour.
4. Delphi management forced GM to come in and fix the mess.
5. Delphi management is undermining GM's efforts right now (as voiced by GM CEO Rick Wagoner) by poisoning things even farther.
Sure, the unions typically deserve a bad rap, they've earned it over the years. I'd be the 1st to call them on it if it was their fault.
But right now, Delphi's management is almost solely to blame. Top management is likely to get healthy payouts if Delphi goes under.
Before we go into kneejerk "blame-the-unions" posturing, take a look at all the details of this.
For once in their lives, the UAW is off the hook with me.
1. Delphi's management made no attempt to fix proplems they have known about for some time.
2. Delphi management gave themselves hefty bonuses.
3. Delphi management layed out an insult of an offer of under $10 per hour.
4. Delphi management forced GM to come in and fix the mess.
5. Delphi management is undermining GM's efforts right now (as voiced by GM CEO Rick Wagoner) by poisoning things even farther.
Sure, the unions typically deserve a bad rap, they've earned it over the years. I'd be the 1st to call them on it if it was their fault.
But right now, Delphi's management is almost solely to blame. Top management is likely to get healthy payouts if Delphi goes under.
Before we go into kneejerk "blame-the-unions" posturing, take a look at all the details of this.
For once in their lives, the UAW is off the hook with me.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
Re: GM Death Watch 63
not to sure of the GuionM,
I mean sure Delphi is to blame for alot of this along with everyone that was doing it back when GM WAS the powerhouse it was and cannot be anymore with the burden it created during good times, what I mean is UAW is not doing biz as usual in the 21st century. I think they are the last to wake up and smell the roses on the dire straghts they are causing GM and if so Ford.
Sure there are many things we dont know and alot of other places to point blame. I know there is no black and white answer but the idea is this. gotta renegotiate and figure this out WITH the people you work for. You strike, UAW is done (from what I am reading) so why do that? Are they really not getting it?
They would rather strike and hurt Delphi and force GM to claim Chp. 11 and this would null everything UAW has always worked for.
Like I said, its not all the UAW's fault but I realy think they are the part of the puzzle that still think its 1960 instead of 2006 still, and thinking locally on a global scale is not the way to run a union and will be run out of existance if that peice of the puzzle isnt trimmed to fit.
see what I am saying.
Like I said Im just seeing what I am reading.
I mean sure Delphi is to blame for alot of this along with everyone that was doing it back when GM WAS the powerhouse it was and cannot be anymore with the burden it created during good times, what I mean is UAW is not doing biz as usual in the 21st century. I think they are the last to wake up and smell the roses on the dire straghts they are causing GM and if so Ford.
Sure there are many things we dont know and alot of other places to point blame. I know there is no black and white answer but the idea is this. gotta renegotiate and figure this out WITH the people you work for. You strike, UAW is done (from what I am reading) so why do that? Are they really not getting it?
They would rather strike and hurt Delphi and force GM to claim Chp. 11 and this would null everything UAW has always worked for.
Like I said, its not all the UAW's fault but I realy think they are the part of the puzzle that still think its 1960 instead of 2006 still, and thinking locally on a global scale is not the way to run a union and will be run out of existance if that peice of the puzzle isnt trimmed to fit.
see what I am saying.
Like I said Im just seeing what I am reading.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,574
From: Arlington, Texas
Re: GM Death Watch 63
Originally Posted by cmutt
Anybody want to make a bet that Delphi has looked at Northwest airlines playbook?
When the NWA mechanics went on strike last Aug, NWA had replacement mechanics all lined up. NWA didn't miss a beat
When the NWA mechanics went on strike last Aug, NWA had replacement mechanics all lined up. NWA didn't miss a beat
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: GM Death Watch 63
Originally Posted by Caps94ZODG
not to sure of the GuionM,
I mean sure Delphi is to blame for alot of this along with everyone that was doing it back when GM WAS the powerhouse it was and cannot be anymore with the burden it created during good times, what I mean is UAW is not doing biz as usual in the 21st century. I think they are the last to wake up and smell the roses on the dire straghts they are causing GM and if so Ford.
Sure there are many things we dont know and alot of other places to point blame. I know there is no black and white answer but the idea is this. gotta renegotiate and figure this out WITH the people you work for. You strike, UAW is done (from what I am reading) so why do that? Are they really not getting it?
They would rather strike and hurt Delphi and force GM to claim Chp. 11 and this would null everything UAW has always worked for.
Like I said, its not all the UAW's fault but I realy think they are the part of the puzzle that still think its 1960 instead of 2006 still, and thinking locally on a global scale is not the way to run a union and will be run out of existance if that peice of the puzzle isnt trimmed to fit.
see what I am saying.
Like I said Im just seeing what I am reading.
I mean sure Delphi is to blame for alot of this along with everyone that was doing it back when GM WAS the powerhouse it was and cannot be anymore with the burden it created during good times, what I mean is UAW is not doing biz as usual in the 21st century. I think they are the last to wake up and smell the roses on the dire straghts they are causing GM and if so Ford.
Sure there are many things we dont know and alot of other places to point blame. I know there is no black and white answer but the idea is this. gotta renegotiate and figure this out WITH the people you work for. You strike, UAW is done (from what I am reading) so why do that? Are they really not getting it?
They would rather strike and hurt Delphi and force GM to claim Chp. 11 and this would null everything UAW has always worked for.
Like I said, its not all the UAW's fault but I realy think they are the part of the puzzle that still think its 1960 instead of 2006 still, and thinking locally on a global scale is not the way to run a union and will be run out of existance if that peice of the puzzle isnt trimmed to fit.
see what I am saying.
Like I said Im just seeing what I am reading.
When Delphi made a final offer in the begining of $9.50 per hour, and seem to be ready to wreck the US economy to get it, while giving themselves massive bonuses, the UAW got off the hook on the blame game. Who in their right mind would work in a factory job at $9.50 per hour?! The union (like you and I) realize that you can get a $9.50 job and the benefits Delphi execs were offering anywhere. So what if they strike? If they lose out, they still get the same pay and benefits Delphi is offering working the floor at WalMarts.
THAT'S why I think the guys running Delphi collectively need CAT scans. They are still demanding that wage, even after GM proposed a really great compromise that the UAW seem ready to pounce on and will solve GM and Delphi's problems while slashing UAW jobs, & cutting labor costs. Where's the problem?
Although it would certainly feel good if the UAW's excesses were wiped out, you DEFINATELY don't want GM to claim bankruptcy to do it. It's would put into motion so many bad things, you don't even want to think about it.
Realistically, sure the UAW would get the blame (unfairly in this case). Sure, the UAW would never recover. Certainly, the UAW would never be able to dictate ridiculous work rules ever again. But in the process, GM would be a shadow of it's former self, & Ford and Chrysler would also be dragged into bankruptcy. Because bankrupt automakers would be able to void contracts with OEM and private suppliers, these people would go under as well. Toledo Ohio is already sweating bullets over losing it's Delphi plant. Imagine it over a much grander scale covering cities that have major suppliers as well as auto factories!
The strike against GM back in '98 lasted less than 2 weeks, but it whacked 1% point off US economic growth....for a full quarter! Just under 1 million people depend on GM for their jobs. Create a ripple effect that not only affects GM & it's suppliers and related communities & cities, but spread it to Ford & Chrysler as well, and..... you get the picture.
Now, look at how Delphi executives are handling all this, and compare that with how General Motors and the UAW are handling this. Who's the only ones to gain if it all falls apart? Who's the one that's pushing things into the abyss? Which of the 3 seem not able to accept a compromise? Which of the 3 seem completely oblivious of the effects of Delphi collasping will have on GM and the entire industry?
Don't know about you, but it makes me want to run over a Delphi exec with a Ryder truck.
(Sorry if it comes across as a rant, but this whole situation seemed all but settled a week ago.)
GM's 1998 strike's effects:
http://titan.iwu.edu/~econ/ppe/1999/korey.pdf#search='gm%20strike%201998'
http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/20/gm.str...ike.hurts.html
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...2001_mz001.htm
Last edited by guionM; Apr 1, 2006 at 04:24 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: GM Death Watch 63
Originally Posted by guionM
THAT'S why I think the guys running Delphi collectively need CAT scans. They are still demanding that wage, even after GM proposed a really great compromise that the UAW seem ready to pounce on and will solve GM and Delphi's problems while slashing UAW jobs, & cutting labor costs. Where's the problem?
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,139
From: Commerce, mi, USA
Re: GM Death Watch 63
If something doesn't change between GM and the unions, it won't matter if GM comes out with a "gotta have it" 400 horse Camaro for $22,000. Their legacy costs are hurting them far more than their vehicles. Everyone says GM needs to "build cars people want to buy." Lots of people DO buy them, though. They are everywhere. It's not getting people to buy them, it's making money off of them. If GM could eliminate the $3,000 in legacy costs per vehicle, they'd probably be making a profit on virtually every car they are selling in the U.S. even at bargain pricing and with incentives.
I understand, to a point the UAWs position, but I also think it's sad that their attitude seems to be "if I can't have the salary and benefits I want, then we'll force the company out of business." A company that has made an extremely good living possible for 5 or more generations of Americans - probably the parents and grandparents of many of these workers. But it's a "what have you done for me lately" world. These are tough times all around and there should undoubtedly be some SERIOUS cuts at the top (see engineering cuts a couple of days ago) and if I were GM upper management, I would forego my salary and any bonuses (bonuses for what nowadays?) until things turned around.
But I also think that the UAW are going to have to realize that their gravy train is going to reach the end of the line, one way or another. They're going to make concessions, or lose their jobs - because there will be no one to work for. And if GM and Ford go under, there won't be American companies for the non-union import factories to be wage competitive with. I'd imagine wages and benefits at the import plants will drop considerably across the board at that juncture. The days of working for 30 years and then retiring with a generous pension and totally free health insurance are over. Period. It's a shame, but it's a fact of life. GM was too succesfull and too good to their workers for too long. Now both are suffering for it.
I understand, to a point the UAWs position, but I also think it's sad that their attitude seems to be "if I can't have the salary and benefits I want, then we'll force the company out of business." A company that has made an extremely good living possible for 5 or more generations of Americans - probably the parents and grandparents of many of these workers. But it's a "what have you done for me lately" world. These are tough times all around and there should undoubtedly be some SERIOUS cuts at the top (see engineering cuts a couple of days ago) and if I were GM upper management, I would forego my salary and any bonuses (bonuses for what nowadays?) until things turned around.
But I also think that the UAW are going to have to realize that their gravy train is going to reach the end of the line, one way or another. They're going to make concessions, or lose their jobs - because there will be no one to work for. And if GM and Ford go under, there won't be American companies for the non-union import factories to be wage competitive with. I'd imagine wages and benefits at the import plants will drop considerably across the board at that juncture. The days of working for 30 years and then retiring with a generous pension and totally free health insurance are over. Period. It's a shame, but it's a fact of life. GM was too succesfull and too good to their workers for too long. Now both are suffering for it.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
Re: GM Death Watch 63
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Actually, Delphi's last offer was for $16.50 per hour...which was rejected by the UAW. If they settle, it'll probably be for somewhere between $16.50 and $27.00 per hour.
see now is it 16.50?? makes it more the UAW now..
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 248
Re: GM Death Watch 63
One thing to keep in mind. With an automotive plant closing near "you" the local economy will suffer greatly and the value of your home will drop (or if you try to get top dollar you will never sell). You cannot change it. And it will be harder to sell also. There is a Delphi plant in Adrian Michigan and there are so many homes for sale there its rediculous! Market is flooded.
So the people here who think that this Delphi problem (or the Big going BK!) wont effect them, Think again.
So the people here who think that this Delphi problem (or the Big going BK!) wont effect them, Think again.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,531
Re: GM Death Watch 63
Reminds me of Eastern Airlines in a way. I primarily blame the mechanics union and management in that case. The motivating factor went from each party getting their fair share to just making sure the other party didn't get what they wanted. Sure it's an oversimplification, but when vindictiveness takes over, that's all she wrote. When that happens, it's everyone's fault.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
Re: GM Death Watch 63
guionM -- Delphi's management did not create Delphi's problems. GM's management created this situation when they spun-off a company that was structurally unprofitable.
In fact, GM set up the whole deal in such a way that Delphi would be rewarded if they managed the company into bankruptcy quickly. To call Delphi's management incompetent is wrong -- they very adeptly played the cards GM dealt them, and now GM is going to end up holding the financial bag.
In fact, GM set up the whole deal in such a way that Delphi would be rewarded if they managed the company into bankruptcy quickly. To call Delphi's management incompetent is wrong -- they very adeptly played the cards GM dealt them, and now GM is going to end up holding the financial bag.
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