91_z28_4me

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/01/...-proton-lotus/

Ineresting that VW now owns not only Porche and Lambroghini but also a 51% stake in the parent company of Lotus.

Threxx

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=36

BTW, they don't own Porsche, though they do own one hell of a lot of other badass companies, and they collaborate with Porsche on quite a few projects. Dr A G Porsche (I think that was his name) something like a century ago founded both companies, but they ended up financially independent. I think he started Porsche first and then VW (translates to "people's car") at some point later as a more affordable vehicle for the germans.

91_z28_4me

Alright Thexx but they have their hands in some VERY exotic pots. And in a lot of regular pots as well.

georgejetson

Actually Porsche owns a big chunk of VW, not the other way around.

As for Proton, let 'em have it. VW is already way overextended; the eventual crash will be fun to watch.

number77

Looking at their involvement, it seems like they want sports car companies to be affiniated with their cars.
Here in the states Lotus isn't a big name. GM wouldn't use their name to market their cars and their real reason (my opinion) for buying some of Lotus is to have more Lotus influence on their cars. It isn't worth GM to get in a bidding war or something over a name they don't need to use. As opposed to someone who is willing to fight for it (I assume).

Threxx

Well I just looked it up on wiki and apparently Porsche was created AFTER VW despite what I as thought earlier. And Porsche owns 18.x percent of VW as of their 2005 purchase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche

Are they losing money? How are they looking financially compare to GM?

I must say that at least they aren't resorting to cookie cutter cars and excessive parts bin sharing. GM has managed to ruing the identity of nearly every brand they've gotten their hands on in more recent times and make a bunch of GM rebadges under their names instead.

johnsocal

Maybe now I can get 0% + 72 month financing on a new Red Lotus Exige............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................or not.

Good Ph.D

They may not be bleeding cash like GM but... Lots of Porsche enthusiast think the company has become way to profit driven... They're pissed about the Cayenne, pissed about the Cayman, and pissed about the Panamera..

Volkswagen somehow thought it would be a good idea to take the "people's car" so upmarket that its indistinguishable from their upmarket brand which has, of course been less then succesful here and everyone else. And of course there quality has never been anything to scream about...

The brightest spot is that seem to have a pention for reviving the dying... Lamborghini, the dead, Bentley, and the Forgotten... Bugatti...

Josh452

VW can own whoever the hell they want.

They lost the man that matters most in the grand scheme of things.

Before Q3 of '07 Wolfgang joins GM. I'm calling it now.

Oh and quickly, can we all just agree with "Threxx" so he leaves once and for all? His latest post on "cookie cutter" and "rebadges" proves he's nothing more than a troll.

georgejetson

I don't know offhand, but it's worth noting that GM appears to have returned to the land of the profitable -- ahead of schedule.

R377

You're a few weeks late : http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=11

(okay, I didn't put a time on it)

Threxx

Let's take a look at Saab's lineup...
9-3... Vectra Platform (Malibu, G6, etc)... not all but quite a few parts shared with other GM vehicles including the Ecotec and LP1 motors.

Saab 9-5? GM 2900 platform... shared with the Saturn L-series and a whole ton of kinda obsolete GM Europe products from Opel and Vauxhall. But no worries, it's moving to Epsilon 2 here shortly. L81 V6 shared with the Caddy Catera and several Saturn products, though it does actually have the unique H-config Saab motor still available... I doubt that'll be the case any longer when the redesign comes.

Saab 9-7x? Nearly a twin of the Buick Ranier, Chevy Trailblazer, Isuzu Ascender, Olds Bravada, and GMC Envoy... oh and the Chevy SSR if you're strictly talking platform and drivetrain.

Hummer H2? Chevy Tahoe/Escalade/Yukon, yes slightly modified platform, but not by much. Shared drivetrain.

Do I care if GM wants to create a new brand of its own and make some rebadges off of that? No... more power to them. If they make it distinguished enough, it may even make sense in terms of market offerings. I'm actually a proponent of rebadging done correctly. However, Lotus, even more (IMO) than Saab, has some VERY unique characteristics to their company's design standards. The last thing I want to do is see all of that go away after GM buys them out and just throws some semi-lightened Kappa platform with a Lotus badge out there as a premium version of the Sky and Solstice. Because given their track record above, that's what'd end up happening, and Lotus would lose its identity.

Lamborghini and Bentley haven't lost a bit of their identity yet. If anything they're continuing their own designs and Audi/VW are just leeching some of the technology and parts for their own lesser vehicles (such as the S6 and S8 Audis and their motors, for example). And Bugatti? Well that's just more marketing than anything - they just bought the name... the company was already long dead, so there was nothing to ruin there, and yet they continued to build a car in the tradition of the company who's name they were using... something that would never be recognizable as a VW, Audi, Bentley, or Lambo.

Me, a troll? Nah. I just say those things that nobody else seems to want to say.
If anybody in this thread is a troll, it's you
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=469449

I've contributed more to this forum and board than you could dream of, so kiss my ***, thanks.

Jason E

Yeah, because only GM shares platforms...

Toyota doesn't share with Lexus...nor does Nissan share with Infiniti...nor does, oh wait, nevermind...

Give it a rest. I doubt I'll ever completely agree with Josh, but he has a little bit of a point here

Threxx

I think I heard the sound of the point flying right past you.

Toyota sharing platforms with Lexus has very little to do with what's in question here.

What's in question here is buying out a company with a unique identity and then replacing their models with your own existing models and their unique badge.

Like I said - if GM wants to create an additional brand of their own and create even more platform shared vehicles... that's great, if they can find the market for it. I don't look down on platform sharing at all, in that regard. But if they were to buy out Lotus, you and I both know it wouldn't be long until Lotus would simply be another name and another variation for all the same platforms we find in all of the other GM brands, and in this case they'd end up likely losing the majority of what made them unique.

Again, do you want to see a heavy Kappa-based Lotus with an Ecotec coming out to replace the Elise and/or Exige in a couple years?

I don't. If I wanted a Lotus, I'd buy a Lotus, if I wanted a Kappa car, I'd buy a Sky or Solstice. No need to offer it to me for a third time under a name that used to gather respect due to its own unique chassis and body designs.

91_z28_4me

I think you are reaching there Threxx. I don't think we would see a GMT360 Lotus. Not even GM could be that short sighted.

Actually I think that could be very cool. Lotus could probably take Kappa and reduce the weight quite a bit and offer a true bare bones, sports machine out of it. Like a modern Catterman 7. Turbo only, tuned to say 300 hp. Heck they could do without the top and make it a true roadster. And then forget sound deadening and a few body panels, make it an open wheel car. It would probably be quite a bit lighter and VERY collectable. And it isn't like there hasn't been an Ecotec in a Lotus before.