Change "servants" to "vermin" and I think you've nailed it.

 

I may miss a thing or two, but I'm not ignoring anything.

The UAW is by far the largest union, and the union most affected by all this. All other involved unions aren't even a drop in the bucket as far as number of people affected.

As such, and being this is a bankruptcy, not giving out goodies to your kids equally, you have to look at which move causes the least damage and which move solves the most issues. Can the state of Michagan (and other states) and pension gurantees and unemployment handle these other small unions or the UAW.

Given a choice between the 2, you'd want to keep the bigger union out of the unemployment line and off the pension books even at the expense of the smaller ones to save the bigger negative impact.....To coin a phrase that often is used by honset women, "Size Really Does Matter".

Then there's the liability claimants.

We aren't exactly talking about people who were driving down the road and an axle broke off going 55 mph and they hit a tree head on. I am by no means making light of their injuries, or saying companies should be blameless all the time. But I feel that most of those injuries are from people who's health care coverage fall short of covering their injuries, and the answer is to sue the maker of the product or the family of someone killed is using lawsuits as a way of easing their grief. I feel most of the balence is simply ambulance chasers convincing injured parties to sue in order to get settlements out of court. It's my belief that very few claims are legit (and I believe there are a few).

Finally, again, back to debtholders.

It's not like Chrysler or GM ran a steam roller over them and laughed the whole time doing it. And it's not the federal government sending mafia-like CIA agents into the backroom of courts telling judges how to vote or what to do. If you take a peak at other instances of 363s, you'll see that while there is nothing quite like what's going on with the automakers run through bankruptcy, there are individual instances where just about everything that's going on with them now has been done before.

Walking away from liability claims? Check.
Leaving some debt holders high and dry? All the time.
Favoring some elements over other? You betcha.
Putting procedures on a fast track in order to save the company? That too.
Unions essentially buying the company? Been done before.

The only difference this time around is that Feds are throwing around money to cover reorganization in order to keep the dominoes from falling.


On an unrelated subject/rant (and this has been bothering me since this stupid idea gained traction):

The White House and the Treasury IMHO are doing a stand up job so far. I give Bush alot of credit...yea, I know, from me that's shocking... for saving General Motors and giving the US auto industry a cash lifeline. There are alot of people here right now who to this very day, refuse to believe that GM actually died when it ran out of money at the start of January, and that the "evil" Federal Government actually saved GM's life. Chrysler would have made it to the summer (they had more money than they let on), but it too was headed the same direction to oblivion that GM was at last winter.

I also give Obama's administration, especially the Treasury Department a heap of credit for actually getting in there and forcing the auto industry to fix itself and the UAW to face changes or face extinction.

They correctly identified the problems each company had, gave it a chance to change itself to make it viable, then gave them a chance to do it again when they couldn't come up with anything that was realistic or worked. Then gave them financing to get them through bankruptcy once splinter elements refused to buy into deals that everyone else involved agreed to, and now have the wisdom to leave them alone in day to day operations as long as they are making structural changes that will make both GM and Chrysler competitive even in a depressed economy.

They even gave cover to GM and Chrysler to strongarm the union for an overhaul in rules, pay, and retirement in ways that they never have been able to do in the 70 plus years of UAW existence.

BUT....(and this is where my rant begins) the US Congress, on the other hand, are turning into a bunch of shortsighted morons.

First they vote to let US automakers die even if it means wrecking the economy for years to come. Then when 2 presidents who realize the consequences, fund GM and Chrysler's turnaround via billions of taxpayer dollars, with the stipulation that taxpayers get that money back. Then the congress (both democrats and republicans) start trying to hamstring things by attempting to tie both automaker's hands by ammending high priority bills with stipulations that neither GM or Chrysler can trim dealers in their district.

In a way, I know I can't blame them. Dealers that are closing are writing their congressman, and including contributions to re-election campaigns, so I guess they have to show they are doing something, even if it's counterproductive to the nation at large.

That's why democracy never worked before the United States came into existence (the US is the world's oldest democracy). Historically it always became corrupt or no longer is able to do what needs to be done for the common good.

Politics is truly a local game

 

I agree. Congress has been pretty much useless (and is threatening to become harmful) in this whole endeavor to save the U.S. auto industry, whereas I really don't have any major complaints about how Obama is doing this, and I think he's doing a lot of stuff right. A 363 bankruptcy was the only way to handle the problem in less than 3 years. Anything else, and you might as well have just gone straight to chapter 7.

 

It's easy sitting here on the internet, being young (and perhaps having no pension plan whatsoever) typing on a keyboard that people who have worked for these automakers for 20, 30, 40, or even 50 years should simply have their pension evaporated with nothing more than a "tough luck". But in the real world, that simply doesn't fly.

False dichomtomy. There was no choice between saving the UAW and saving everyone else. Hell, if those other unions are just a drop in the bucket then the impact of including them in the settlement would also have been a drop in the bucket.

I say, include them all, or include none. How many votes your union controls does not make you more or less deserving of your pension and health benefits. These are real people you are talking about guy. Again, it's easy sitting here on the internet, being young (and perhaps having no pension plan whatsoever) typing on a keyboard that people who have worked for these automakers for 20, 30, 40, or even 50 years should simply have their pension evaporated with nothing more than a "tough luck". But in the real world, that simply doesn't fly.

Thanks for ignoring more legitimate complaints like factory workers who were exposed to asbesto to help make your point. Just because one group of lawsuits might not be legit doesn't invalidate all of them.

You should stick to writing about cars because you just made my argument for me. It is awful hard to look at what is happening to GM as anything but a reorg. However...

A 363 sale is *NOT* a reorganization. You just touched the top of the argument that this 363 sale is really a sub-rosa reorganization, which is illegal by case law precedent. The judge's ruling spends quite some time on this topic. Allow me to use the judge's definition:

That sounds a whole lot to me like what is happeneing here. Creditors are being forced to go along with the 363 sale with no ability to vote on it. different classes of creditors (like unions who control more votes) are being treated differently.

The judge basically dismisses those charges with wording that sounds like the chewbacca defense.

At least the judge makes no bones about it being all on the government's (i'm sorry, purchaser's) lap.

 

It's july 10th. It's done, they're still here.

internet laywers +1

 

are we not witnessing this right now as the days unfold? When was the last tine our goverment actualyl worked not for the benifit of big corperations but the actual people that appointed them to office??