ford vs navistar
02-26-2007, 01:29 PM
#1
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02-26-2007, 01:35 PM
#2
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Ford said that it has starting holding back payment to recover what it feels the supplier owes Ford on the warranty issue.
I'd love to see Ford customers stop paying on their car loans because they "feel like" Ford charged them too much for their car.
02-26-2007, 01:38 PM
#3
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well ford claims they started charging more.....now how would you feel if audi started to ask for more money on your A4?
02-26-2007, 02:02 PM
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I wonder if the last few flowerpokes their line put out were built like crap... "man... eff Ford... we're about to shut this production down because those bastards won't pay up... let's take a dump in this one before we send it off"
It's pretty simple - did their contract state that they could change their prices under the given conditions?
For Audi to charge more money on my A4 wouldn't make sense, since contractually they can't, and there'd be no reason to include such a clause in their contract as once my A4 was delivered to me there was no room for variance in their cost. The exception would be if my lease was made to have a variable rate money factor based on prime - but it doesn't.
For Audi to charge more money on my A4 wouldn't make sense, since contractually they can't, and there'd be no reason to include such a clause in their contract as once my A4 was delivered to me there was no room for variance in their cost. The exception would be if my lease was made to have a variable rate money factor based on prime - but it doesn't.
02-26-2007, 02:15 PM
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I wonder if the last few flowerpokes their line put out were built like crap... "man... eff Ford... we're about to shut this production down because those bastards won't pay up... let's take a dump in this one before we send it off"
It's pretty simple - did their contract state that they could change their prices under the given conditions?
For Audi to charge more money on my A4 wouldn't make sense, since contractually they can't,
It's pretty simple - did their contract state that they could change their prices under the given conditions?
For Audi to charge more money on my A4 wouldn't make sense, since contractually they can't,
02-26-2007, 02:34 PM
#6
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I was laid off from the Indy plant in October so I am a little bitter towards Navistar.Navistar raised the price of their engines and didn't pay their part of warranties,so Ford stopped paying.I'm not suprised.Navistar is trying to take advantage of Ford when they know Ford is depending on this engine for survival.In the 10 years that I was with them I saw nothing but lies and broken promises from this company.The plant manager told 700 people to our face that their would be no lay offs.One week later 310 of us got our notices.They have not filed their financial reports for 2 years,yet they claim they are an $11 billion company.$11 billion and you are willing to screw your best customer for a few dollars.F Navistar!
02-26-2007, 07:41 PM
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97greenie, I'm laid off from Springfield, I feel ya...those reports weren't filed b/c they need time to find a way to keep from paying us Profit Sharing...They were booted off NASDAQ, they basically said, SO WHAT!, offered to buy back shares...doesn't look good.
I don't work in the Engine Group side but, they're supposed to be in the middle of New engines meeting the New EPA standards which cost more to live up to, Green Diesel Technology, it's raising the price of some IH Trucks by $4K-$5K...I'm not sure how much I can say w/o getting in trouble.
Some of this bleeds over to Ford P/Ups too, as they share some engines and engines architecture.
I don't work in the Engine Group side but, they're supposed to be in the middle of New engines meeting the New EPA standards which cost more to live up to, Green Diesel Technology, it's raising the price of some IH Trucks by $4K-$5K...I'm not sure how much I can say w/o getting in trouble.
For more information:
Press Contact Information International Engine Group Introduces
All New V-8 Platform
Customer Requirements Drive Design of MaxxForce™ 7
WARRENVILLE, Ill., Nov. 6, 2006 – International Truck and Engine Corporation today announced the MaxxForce™ 7, the engine that will redefine commercial diesel performance and driver comfort for the industry. Featuring a high-pressure common-rail fuel system utilizing piezo-actuated injectors and an advanced air management system, the MaxxForce 7 provides exceptional fuel economy, power, performance, reliability and durability, while meeting the EPA’s stringent 2007 EPA emissions standards.
“To meet demanding customer requirements, we started with fresh thinking based upon customer needs to design the new MaxxForce 7,” said Jack Allen, president, International Engine Group. “Customers told us they need an engine that not only provides fuel economy, power and performance for their business, but also ‘quiet power’ for driver comfort and reduction of noise pollution for city routes where many of our products are used. We deliver that with the MaxxForce 7.”
Fuel Economy
The new V-8 platform has had more than 80,000 hours of engine testing and 6 million miles of development and validation, the results of which show impressive numbers. Thousands of hours of dynamometer testing with the MaxxForce 7 engine have demonstrated exceptional fuel economy over its predecessors. By optimizing transmission and drivelines it is possible for our customers to see double-digit improvements in fuel economy. This is where the value of an integrated truck and engine company pays off for the customer. International has the ability to optimize its vehicles to achieve economy and provide these advantages and benefits to its customers.
“Our lab data verifies a double-digit fuel economy gain during pickup and delivery cycles,” said Helmut Endres, vice president engineering and product development, International Engine Group. “Even with increased displacement and the impact of exhaust aftertreatment devices, engine dynamometer and vehicle testing indicates the fuel economy of MaxxForce 7 powered products will not degrade (relative to the current V-8 product) under any operating condition.”
Tom Cellitti, vice president and general manager, Medium Truck Vehicle Center, International Truck Group said, “In-city cycle testing indicates a significant improvement in tank mileage. This level of improvement is a result of base engine and vehicle power train optimization. Actual comparative vehicle fuel economy tests will be conducted later this year and actual results made available at that time.”
High-Pressure Common Rail with Piezo-Actuated Injectors
Helping drive the fuel economy improvements is a high-precision, high-pressure common-rail fuel system that utilizes Piezo-actuated fuel injectors. The Piezo-electric linear actuator is a solid-state ceramic actuator that converts electric energy into linear motion precisely controlling the needle’s opening and closing through the hydraulic circuit. The capabilities of these actuators, the fastest in the industry, combined with the ingenuity of International’s calibrators result in a system that delivers five shots of fuel through the combustion cycle. This allows the fuel to burn more completely and efficiently resulting in greater fuel economy, lower noise, low emissions and aftertreatment control without external dosing.
Advanced Air Management
Working in conjunction with the common-rail fuel system is an air-management system utilizing an electronically controlled variable geometry turbocharger (EVRT™). The EVRT employs a set of vanes that automatically adjust to optimize the airflow within the turbo to provides exceptional response over a wide range of engine speeds for impressive acceleration, grade climbing capability, high-altitude performance and towing capability. It also drives EGR, delivers more air at lower RPMs and reduces parasitic loads in low or no load conditions. All of this helps to reduce noise, improve fuel economy, meet emissions and make the International trucks the MaxxForce 7 powers responsive and driver friendly.
Other features behind the reliability, durability and performance of the MaxxForce 7 include:
Parallel cooling optimizes the cooling of critical components versus using series-cooling loops. The parallel system used on the MaxxForce7 allows dedicated coolant flow to each critical component providing even cooling, which equates to long component life.
Directed Piston Cooling Jet Tubes and gallery cooled pistons, a big-bore feature incorporated into the new engine, distribute cooling oil into a passage surrounding the combustion bowl to remove the maximum amount of heat from the piston. This helps to achieve maximum durability and reliability and assure outstanding power and cylinder life in the face of higher injection pressures.
A single ECM with 32-bit processor provides powerful electronic control of the engine and aftertreatment systems and is vertically integrated to provide efficient communication with International’s trucks.
Top-mounted oil filter provides for ease and low cost of maintenance and ownership by allowing for quick and easy removal of the innovatively designed oil cartridge, which is similar in concept to a printer cartridge. This keeps oil self-contained during a filter change, which should be done every 10,000 miles, and the engine free of dripping oil during routine maintenance.
10,000-mile oil drain interval allows drivers to go longer between service stops, adding to the engine’s low cost of required maintenance and ownership.
Hydraulic lifters give the MaxxForce 7 a service-free valvetrain, eliminating the need to ever get under the valve cover.
The MaxxForce 7 diesel engine will power Class 5 through Class 7 trucks with 200-230 hp at 2,600 RPM and 560-620 ft. lbs of torque @ 1,400 RPM.
International Truck and Engine Corporation
International Truck and Engine Corporation is the operating company of Navistar International Corporation (NYSE: NAV). The company produces International® brand commercial trucks, mid-range diesel engines and IC brand school buses, Workhorse brand chassis for motor homes and step vans, and is a private label designer and manufacturer of diesel engines for the pickup truck, van and SUV markets. The company is also a provider of truck and diesel engine parts and service sold under the International® brand. A wholly owned subsidiary offers financing services. Additional information is available at: www.internationaldelivers.com.
Press Contact Information International Engine Group Introduces
All New V-8 Platform
Customer Requirements Drive Design of MaxxForce™ 7
WARRENVILLE, Ill., Nov. 6, 2006 – International Truck and Engine Corporation today announced the MaxxForce™ 7, the engine that will redefine commercial diesel performance and driver comfort for the industry. Featuring a high-pressure common-rail fuel system utilizing piezo-actuated injectors and an advanced air management system, the MaxxForce 7 provides exceptional fuel economy, power, performance, reliability and durability, while meeting the EPA’s stringent 2007 EPA emissions standards.
“To meet demanding customer requirements, we started with fresh thinking based upon customer needs to design the new MaxxForce 7,” said Jack Allen, president, International Engine Group. “Customers told us they need an engine that not only provides fuel economy, power and performance for their business, but also ‘quiet power’ for driver comfort and reduction of noise pollution for city routes where many of our products are used. We deliver that with the MaxxForce 7.”
Fuel Economy
The new V-8 platform has had more than 80,000 hours of engine testing and 6 million miles of development and validation, the results of which show impressive numbers. Thousands of hours of dynamometer testing with the MaxxForce 7 engine have demonstrated exceptional fuel economy over its predecessors. By optimizing transmission and drivelines it is possible for our customers to see double-digit improvements in fuel economy. This is where the value of an integrated truck and engine company pays off for the customer. International has the ability to optimize its vehicles to achieve economy and provide these advantages and benefits to its customers.
“Our lab data verifies a double-digit fuel economy gain during pickup and delivery cycles,” said Helmut Endres, vice president engineering and product development, International Engine Group. “Even with increased displacement and the impact of exhaust aftertreatment devices, engine dynamometer and vehicle testing indicates the fuel economy of MaxxForce 7 powered products will not degrade (relative to the current V-8 product) under any operating condition.”
Tom Cellitti, vice president and general manager, Medium Truck Vehicle Center, International Truck Group said, “In-city cycle testing indicates a significant improvement in tank mileage. This level of improvement is a result of base engine and vehicle power train optimization. Actual comparative vehicle fuel economy tests will be conducted later this year and actual results made available at that time.”
High-Pressure Common Rail with Piezo-Actuated Injectors
Helping drive the fuel economy improvements is a high-precision, high-pressure common-rail fuel system that utilizes Piezo-actuated fuel injectors. The Piezo-electric linear actuator is a solid-state ceramic actuator that converts electric energy into linear motion precisely controlling the needle’s opening and closing through the hydraulic circuit. The capabilities of these actuators, the fastest in the industry, combined with the ingenuity of International’s calibrators result in a system that delivers five shots of fuel through the combustion cycle. This allows the fuel to burn more completely and efficiently resulting in greater fuel economy, lower noise, low emissions and aftertreatment control without external dosing.
Advanced Air Management
Working in conjunction with the common-rail fuel system is an air-management system utilizing an electronically controlled variable geometry turbocharger (EVRT™). The EVRT employs a set of vanes that automatically adjust to optimize the airflow within the turbo to provides exceptional response over a wide range of engine speeds for impressive acceleration, grade climbing capability, high-altitude performance and towing capability. It also drives EGR, delivers more air at lower RPMs and reduces parasitic loads in low or no load conditions. All of this helps to reduce noise, improve fuel economy, meet emissions and make the International trucks the MaxxForce 7 powers responsive and driver friendly.
Other features behind the reliability, durability and performance of the MaxxForce 7 include:
Parallel cooling optimizes the cooling of critical components versus using series-cooling loops. The parallel system used on the MaxxForce7 allows dedicated coolant flow to each critical component providing even cooling, which equates to long component life.
Directed Piston Cooling Jet Tubes and gallery cooled pistons, a big-bore feature incorporated into the new engine, distribute cooling oil into a passage surrounding the combustion bowl to remove the maximum amount of heat from the piston. This helps to achieve maximum durability and reliability and assure outstanding power and cylinder life in the face of higher injection pressures.
A single ECM with 32-bit processor provides powerful electronic control of the engine and aftertreatment systems and is vertically integrated to provide efficient communication with International’s trucks.
Top-mounted oil filter provides for ease and low cost of maintenance and ownership by allowing for quick and easy removal of the innovatively designed oil cartridge, which is similar in concept to a printer cartridge. This keeps oil self-contained during a filter change, which should be done every 10,000 miles, and the engine free of dripping oil during routine maintenance.
10,000-mile oil drain interval allows drivers to go longer between service stops, adding to the engine’s low cost of required maintenance and ownership.
Hydraulic lifters give the MaxxForce 7 a service-free valvetrain, eliminating the need to ever get under the valve cover.
The MaxxForce 7 diesel engine will power Class 5 through Class 7 trucks with 200-230 hp at 2,600 RPM and 560-620 ft. lbs of torque @ 1,400 RPM.
International Truck and Engine Corporation
International Truck and Engine Corporation is the operating company of Navistar International Corporation (NYSE: NAV). The company produces International® brand commercial trucks, mid-range diesel engines and IC brand school buses, Workhorse brand chassis for motor homes and step vans, and is a private label designer and manufacturer of diesel engines for the pickup truck, van and SUV markets. The company is also a provider of truck and diesel engine parts and service sold under the International® brand. A wholly owned subsidiary offers financing services. Additional information is available at: www.internationaldelivers.com.
Last edited by 90rocz; 02-26-2007 at 07:45 PM.
02-26-2007, 07:58 PM
#8
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 681
The 2008 Superduty/Power Stroke meets the 2007 emissions standards. The Maxxforce 7 is based on the 6.4L Power Stroke, but there are numerous differences.
2007 will be a very down year for International. Most of the fleets that were planning on buying vehicles in 2007 bought in 2006 instead. They knew about the emissions changes and subsequent price increase. Sales are anticipated to drop over 20%! That is why International had to lay off a substantial amount of its workforce.
2007 will be a very down year for International. Most of the fleets that were planning on buying vehicles in 2007 bought in 2006 instead. They knew about the emissions changes and subsequent price increase. Sales are anticipated to drop over 20%! That is why International had to lay off a substantial amount of its workforce.
02-26-2007, 08:13 PM
#10
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Indy
Posts: 48
90rocz,thats funny because thats what everyone said about profit sharing here.I know its a tough business but with the Ford/Navistar thing now everyone loses.No one is making any money.I talked to a friend of mine and they showed up for work today they just sent them all home.I would think that they would continue to build engines and just sit on them.They are still behind on the launch and that is what I find odd.I think that they plan on eventually closing this plant and do it all out of Huntsville since they already gave them most of our work anyway.
02-27-2007, 08:05 AM
#11
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 681
90rocz,thats funny because thats what everyone said about profit sharing here.I know its a tough business but with the Ford/Navistar thing now everyone loses.No one is making any money.I talked to a friend of mine and they showed up for work today they just sent them all home.I would think that they would continue to build engines and just sit on them.They are still behind on the launch and that is what I find odd.I think that they plan on eventually closing this plant and do it all out of Huntsville since they already gave them most of our work anyway.
If International continued to build engines, then that wouldn't put much pressure on Ford. They would know that their supply could start back up quickly.
I don't know the specifics of the contract, but I believe that the idled workers still get a % of their sallary, plus unemployment.
I'm not sure why you say that the launch was behind. Ford had a bank of engines at the beginning of the year. I am sure that it is starting to be depleted, though.
The Indy plant produces about 4x the number of engines as the Huntsville plant. If Ford breaks the contract, then, yes, I would be worried about the Indy plant closing.
02-27-2007, 01:37 PM
#12
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Payson, AZ USA
Posts: 1,181
If International wasn't making much money on the 6.0, then it is their fault for entering into a purchasing contract at that price.
This is part of the reason why Ford is suing Navistar. They have a contractural agreement for a certain price for the engine, and then Navistar says "well, now you have to pay ____, or we won't ship to you."
This would be like FMC, or GMAC saying "well, now we losing money, so you have to pay more for the car that you already have a binding contract on."
If Navistar had any leg to stand on, in the lawsuit, they would have answered it. Instead, they stop production. In essence, they are holding the engines hostage. It reeks of strong arm tactics of the worst kind.
This is part of the reason why Ford is suing Navistar. They have a contractural agreement for a certain price for the engine, and then Navistar says "well, now you have to pay ____, or we won't ship to you."
This would be like FMC, or GMAC saying "well, now we losing money, so you have to pay more for the car that you already have a binding contract on."
If Navistar had any leg to stand on, in the lawsuit, they would have answered it. Instead, they stop production. In essence, they are holding the engines hostage. It reeks of strong arm tactics of the worst kind.
02-27-2007, 05:10 PM
#13
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Michigan's left coast
Posts: 2,405
One of the parties is in breach of contract - it'll be entertaining to watch the courts figure out who that is.
02-27-2007, 08:18 PM
#14
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 681
If International wasn't making much money on the 6.0, then it is their fault for entering into a purchasing contract at that price.
This is part of the reason why Ford is suing Navistar. They have a contractural agreement for a certain price for the engine, and then Navistar says "well, now you have to pay ____, or we won't ship to you."
This would be like FMC, or GMAC saying "well, now we losing money, so you have to pay more for the car that you already have a binding contract on."
If Navistar had any leg to stand on, in the lawsuit, they would have answered it. Instead, they stop production. In essence, they are holding the engines hostage. It reeks of strong arm tactics of the worst kind.
This is part of the reason why Ford is suing Navistar. They have a contractural agreement for a certain price for the engine, and then Navistar says "well, now you have to pay ____, or we won't ship to you."
This would be like FMC, or GMAC saying "well, now we losing money, so you have to pay more for the car that you already have a binding contract on."
If Navistar had any leg to stand on, in the lawsuit, they would have answered it. Instead, they stop production. In essence, they are holding the engines hostage. It reeks of strong arm tactics of the worst kind.
Also, for the warranty charges, what if it can be shown that changes Ford made to the engine (like fuel system or calibration) were responsible for a large percentage of the failures? Or, what if Ford rushes changes into production that aren't fully tested?
Last edited by rlchv70; 02-27-2007 at 08:20 PM.
02-27-2007, 08:18 PM
#15
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Indy
Posts: 48
Heard a new rumor today that just before the launch of the 6.4 and after the contract agreement Ford demanded some changes that required alot of retooling for the line and wanted Navistar to cover the cost.Navistar expected Ford to cover the cost.I dont know how legit that is,but I heard that from a couple of the engineers.This is going to be very interesting.