Is Ford running itself into the ground?
09-11-2003, 07:36 PM
#1
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Is Ford running itself into the ground?
Starting last year, GM would have replaced their entire carline by 2007, bringing back a wide range of performance models, new RWD models, and a new line of world class luxury cars (Cadillac).
Chrysler is owned by Mercedes but still has their own budget & finances. Even though they argubly have the least amount of money of the traditional big 3, they also (starting a year ago) will have replaced every single vehicle they make with new vehicles. Like GM, also by 2007.
But over at Ford, one has to wonder what's going on. Ford has a new full sized pickup that seems to be a gem, and the next Mustang also appears like it's going to be a treat in quality & performance. But the rest of Ford's lineup makes one wonder:
The Crown Victoria's chassis was developed almost 25 years ago, and in that time it's had just 3 basic bodies. Yet, it's going to get yet another reskin, and continue till the end of the decade! Ditto Town Car.
The new Ford Ranger that was 1st to appear shortly after the new millenium will have just a nose & interior job next year, and will also continue till the end of the decade. This would be fine, but the Ranger has continued with the same body for 10 years! The upcomming full sized F150 will mark the 3rd body of that truck over the current Ranger body's life span.
Chrysler & GM will soon bring out fully modern, RWD chassis for full size cars, yet Ford seems convinced that the live axle, full framed Panther cars will compete just fine.
Instead of simply redesigning the Taurus, Ford is instead keeping the Taurus as is for a few more years (though it was scheduled to be redesigned by now) and rebodying a Mazda 6 as 1 sedan, and rebodying a Volvo as another sedan, both to sell alongside the Taurus.
Lincoln (save the LS which is likely to become the Continental when it's redesigned next year) doesn't seem to have any plan since it's budget was gutted last year and it was moved back to Ford HQ from PAG. Lincoln Mark 9 is in limbo, and it's still questionable if the LS's chassis will show up under any other Lincoln. While Cadillac's moving up, Lincoln seems to be moving towards becoming Ford's Buick.
To show how baffling Ford seems to have become:
*For all the money spent on the LS chassis, Ford as of yet is using it on anything else, and appears to be at least years away from doing so.
* After spending money engineering Thunderbird, Ford is discontinuing it as opposed to a redesign. If the 'Bird is going back to a 4-5 passenger car, seems a redesigned body on that chassis would do wonders for Lincoln's image.
* Even though Ford of Europe is doing the engineering for a new Focus, Ford's US arm is going to keep the current Focus (with some new styling touches) apparently till the end of the decade to "save money". But if the money is already being spent by Ford of Europe for this.....?
It seems that Ford has become so disorganized and focused, that it seems to be destroying itself. It no longer seems to be willing to compete, it doesn't want to spend money on products that need it, but is willing to spend to create multiple lines that could be handled by 1 or 2 at most, and it's new vehicle introductions to date have been disasterous due to nickel-saving mistakes.
You can't blame it on a lack of money. The Chrysler arm of Daimler-Chrysler has a smaller budget, yet not only is their future lineup focused and modern, they seem capable of introducing new vehicles without massive recalls or screwing over it's customers when something goes wrong. If Chrysler carrys through with their intentions of instituting high quality materials & assembly as each model is replaced, Ford is going to be hard pressed to justify what it's trying to do.
GM is on track for a major comeback. Chrysler, if it survives the next year or so, will have a vast array of new products (without that traditional "Chrysler quality"). Ford is the only one that from the outside seems like a disaster in the making. Outside of large trucks & Ford's range of SUVs, SVT, and finally the new Mustang, on the surface looks as if Ford is headed for trouble.
Chrysler is owned by Mercedes but still has their own budget & finances. Even though they argubly have the least amount of money of the traditional big 3, they also (starting a year ago) will have replaced every single vehicle they make with new vehicles. Like GM, also by 2007.
But over at Ford, one has to wonder what's going on. Ford has a new full sized pickup that seems to be a gem, and the next Mustang also appears like it's going to be a treat in quality & performance. But the rest of Ford's lineup makes one wonder:
The Crown Victoria's chassis was developed almost 25 years ago, and in that time it's had just 3 basic bodies. Yet, it's going to get yet another reskin, and continue till the end of the decade! Ditto Town Car.
The new Ford Ranger that was 1st to appear shortly after the new millenium will have just a nose & interior job next year, and will also continue till the end of the decade. This would be fine, but the Ranger has continued with the same body for 10 years! The upcomming full sized F150 will mark the 3rd body of that truck over the current Ranger body's life span.
Chrysler & GM will soon bring out fully modern, RWD chassis for full size cars, yet Ford seems convinced that the live axle, full framed Panther cars will compete just fine.
Instead of simply redesigning the Taurus, Ford is instead keeping the Taurus as is for a few more years (though it was scheduled to be redesigned by now) and rebodying a Mazda 6 as 1 sedan, and rebodying a Volvo as another sedan, both to sell alongside the Taurus.
Lincoln (save the LS which is likely to become the Continental when it's redesigned next year) doesn't seem to have any plan since it's budget was gutted last year and it was moved back to Ford HQ from PAG. Lincoln Mark 9 is in limbo, and it's still questionable if the LS's chassis will show up under any other Lincoln. While Cadillac's moving up, Lincoln seems to be moving towards becoming Ford's Buick.
To show how baffling Ford seems to have become:
*For all the money spent on the LS chassis, Ford as of yet is using it on anything else, and appears to be at least years away from doing so.
* After spending money engineering Thunderbird, Ford is discontinuing it as opposed to a redesign. If the 'Bird is going back to a 4-5 passenger car, seems a redesigned body on that chassis would do wonders for Lincoln's image.
* Even though Ford of Europe is doing the engineering for a new Focus, Ford's US arm is going to keep the current Focus (with some new styling touches) apparently till the end of the decade to "save money". But if the money is already being spent by Ford of Europe for this.....?
It seems that Ford has become so disorganized and focused, that it seems to be destroying itself. It no longer seems to be willing to compete, it doesn't want to spend money on products that need it, but is willing to spend to create multiple lines that could be handled by 1 or 2 at most, and it's new vehicle introductions to date have been disasterous due to nickel-saving mistakes.
You can't blame it on a lack of money. The Chrysler arm of Daimler-Chrysler has a smaller budget, yet not only is their future lineup focused and modern, they seem capable of introducing new vehicles without massive recalls or screwing over it's customers when something goes wrong. If Chrysler carrys through with their intentions of instituting high quality materials & assembly as each model is replaced, Ford is going to be hard pressed to justify what it's trying to do.
GM is on track for a major comeback. Chrysler, if it survives the next year or so, will have a vast array of new products (without that traditional "Chrysler quality"). Ford is the only one that from the outside seems like a disaster in the making. Outside of large trucks & Ford's range of SUVs, SVT, and finally the new Mustang, on the surface looks as if Ford is headed for trouble.
09-11-2003, 08:23 PM
#2
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Things that baffle me about Ford:
I'm still quite shocked they're going to build the GT(40). As you mentioned guionM, they seem to have a lot of needs...and a $150,000 supercar isn't one of them. Now, I'm fully aware of the supposed "halo" effect and image-building...but I'm just not sure how many people buy a Ford Focus based in part because they build the GT. Who knows this may be a great move...
The concepts Ford showed on the circuit last year were pretty nice. What's up with the 427? Big sleek sedan with a V10...and come to find out it was nothing more than a styling preview of a FWD V6 family car? What a disappointment.
Obviously in the coming years Ford will be content to throw more power and fresh body panels into their older models like the before-mentioned Crown Vic, Taurus, etc., to cover up the old-as-dirt architectures. They're probably hoping the majority of people won't notice. I'd say that's one heck of a gamble.
You know, for all the talk of GM having too many divisions even after axing Olds, I think Ford has similar problems in that way. Look at the so-called Premium Automotive Group. One (Lincoln) was kicked out because they simply didn't know what to do with it. But they still have Aston and Jag to boot. Land Rover's reputation has taken a hit in recent years as the downmarket Discovery and Freelander have gotten very unflattering reviews. And what is the point of Mercury, really? No one has been able to explain that division.
All in all Ford's strategy was obviously to pour all their money and resources into their most important models and hope to "get by" for the rest of the decade with the other stuff. If your full-size truck and your pony car are the world's best but your other cars are seen as woeful, does this really help you?
I'm still quite shocked they're going to build the GT(40). As you mentioned guionM, they seem to have a lot of needs...and a $150,000 supercar isn't one of them. Now, I'm fully aware of the supposed "halo" effect and image-building...but I'm just not sure how many people buy a Ford Focus based in part because they build the GT. Who knows this may be a great move...
The concepts Ford showed on the circuit last year were pretty nice. What's up with the 427? Big sleek sedan with a V10...and come to find out it was nothing more than a styling preview of a FWD V6 family car? What a disappointment.
Obviously in the coming years Ford will be content to throw more power and fresh body panels into their older models like the before-mentioned Crown Vic, Taurus, etc., to cover up the old-as-dirt architectures. They're probably hoping the majority of people won't notice. I'd say that's one heck of a gamble.
You know, for all the talk of GM having too many divisions even after axing Olds, I think Ford has similar problems in that way. Look at the so-called Premium Automotive Group. One (Lincoln) was kicked out because they simply didn't know what to do with it. But they still have Aston and Jag to boot. Land Rover's reputation has taken a hit in recent years as the downmarket Discovery and Freelander have gotten very unflattering reviews. And what is the point of Mercury, really? No one has been able to explain that division.
All in all Ford's strategy was obviously to pour all their money and resources into their most important models and hope to "get by" for the rest of the decade with the other stuff. If your full-size truck and your pony car are the world's best but your other cars are seen as woeful, does this really help you?
09-11-2003, 08:37 PM
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Since I can remember GM has been in a perpetual turn-around for decades. I can remember countless automotive and business articles that make reference to how GM is trying to reinvent themselves and turn their business around.
While I agree that GM has become more efficient and their products are getting considerably better, everyone seems to focus on trying to return back to the golden age of domestic automobiles when there were fewer models and fewer brands to compete against. Since there were fewer models and fewer brands each model did considerably more volume per unit than cars and trucks that are produced today ( of course there are a few exceptions).
I think Ford is suffering from the fact that many of their new models (and new models that will be going into production within the next year or so) were originally designed and got approved when the US economy was in a economic-bubble perpetuated by speculation in technology while most were ignoring obvious inconstancies in the fundamentals. Since these new cars were approved in anomalous economic times Ford overestimated the wealth-effect and growth in the economy and ended up designing cars that are far more expensive to produce then the models they were intended to replace while family incomes did not increase at the rate as expected.
After the tragedy of 9/11 GM launched an incentive-war to keep volume up while putting enormous pricing pressure on themselves and their competitors. This unexpected shift in conjunction with the collapse of an economic bubble has forced Ford to rethink their product line in midstream. Suddenly Ford has come to the conclusion that their new models are too expensive to compete against GM’s incentives.
Ford is forced to either redesign models that will delay their introduction or release new models as planned but keep older and cheaper models around until they can either find ways to get the new models manufactured cheaper and/or more efficiently or hope the incentive-war will end soon as the economy picks back up.
Thats my 2 cents
While I agree that GM has become more efficient and their products are getting considerably better, everyone seems to focus on trying to return back to the golden age of domestic automobiles when there were fewer models and fewer brands to compete against. Since there were fewer models and fewer brands each model did considerably more volume per unit than cars and trucks that are produced today ( of course there are a few exceptions).
I think Ford is suffering from the fact that many of their new models (and new models that will be going into production within the next year or so) were originally designed and got approved when the US economy was in a economic-bubble perpetuated by speculation in technology while most were ignoring obvious inconstancies in the fundamentals. Since these new cars were approved in anomalous economic times Ford overestimated the wealth-effect and growth in the economy and ended up designing cars that are far more expensive to produce then the models they were intended to replace while family incomes did not increase at the rate as expected.
After the tragedy of 9/11 GM launched an incentive-war to keep volume up while putting enormous pricing pressure on themselves and their competitors. This unexpected shift in conjunction with the collapse of an economic bubble has forced Ford to rethink their product line in midstream. Suddenly Ford has come to the conclusion that their new models are too expensive to compete against GM’s incentives.
Ford is forced to either redesign models that will delay their introduction or release new models as planned but keep older and cheaper models around until they can either find ways to get the new models manufactured cheaper and/or more efficiently or hope the incentive-war will end soon as the economy picks back up.
Thats my 2 cents
Last edited by johnsocal; 09-11-2003 at 08:46 PM.
09-11-2003, 08:48 PM
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Ford wont be running themselves into the ground until they stop selling as many cars as they do. I think theyll be just fine. As for the Crown Vic and other cars that theyre keeping around, if its not broke dont fix it. They seem to have no problem selling them so why spend money engineering updates? If they plan on using these designs till 2010 they have plenty of time to get to the drawing table.
I think Ford will sell plenty of their reskinned Mazda 6 and Volvos, the next Mustang will sell as fast as they can make them for atleast the first few years and the new F-150 will surely be sucessful. The only concern I have is their Ranger. I'm suprised they dont update that to compete with the new trucks that will be coming out soon.
I dont think Ford is not willing to compete, I think they just have less catch up to play than GM does.
I think Ford will sell plenty of their reskinned Mazda 6 and Volvos, the next Mustang will sell as fast as they can make them for atleast the first few years and the new F-150 will surely be sucessful. The only concern I have is their Ranger. I'm suprised they dont update that to compete with the new trucks that will be coming out soon.
I dont think Ford is not willing to compete, I think they just have less catch up to play than GM does.
09-11-2003, 09:09 PM
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Ford has had some problems...but I think that they may be on the verge of pulling it together.
They've had some flops, (like Blackwood and Aviator)....but trucks make alot of money for them. They are beginning to leverage there control of Mazda and ownership of Volvo into alot of shared platform products.
The Panther platform may be old...but man, oh,man does it still sell....imagine how long ago the amortization costs were paid for on that.
Really, I hope all of the big 2.5 pull it together.
They've had some flops, (like Blackwood and Aviator)....but trucks make alot of money for them. They are beginning to leverage there control of Mazda and ownership of Volvo into alot of shared platform products.
The Panther platform may be old...but man, oh,man does it still sell....imagine how long ago the amortization costs were paid for on that.
Really, I hope all of the big 2.5 pull it together.
09-11-2003, 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by Meccadeth
If the next F150 fails, then Ford will definately not be around for long :blah: GM could run them into the ground if they did something majorly successful w/ the pick-up line-up.
If the next F150 fails, then Ford will definately not be around for long :blah: GM could run them into the ground if they did something majorly successful w/ the pick-up line-up.
09-11-2003, 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by bigsteve7
As for the Crown Vic and other cars that theyre keeping around, if its not broke dont fix it.
As for the Crown Vic and other cars that theyre keeping around, if its not broke dont fix it.
I never really thought about the product lines of the Big 3 like this before, some great points are being brought up.
09-11-2003, 11:49 PM
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I think they’ll do just fine. Most of the Suv’s and trucks except for the Ranger have already been redesigned in 2003/04. The engines will get an overall with the 4.6, 5.4, and 6.8 v10 all getting the 3v treatment and the 6.0 diesel was new for 2003. The 3.5 Dohc Duratec will replace the 3.8 and 3.0’s come 2006. The Mustang, Freestar (windstar replacement), Freestyle (crossover), Futura (mazda 6 twin), and Five hundred (full sized sedean with AWD option) will all make their way into the lineup within the next couple of years. A lot of these will have Mercury and Lincoln twins as well. All sound like major improvements over their replacements or sound like good new additions. Sounds like a really diverse lineup to me. You've also mentioned a few more planned models that are probably on hold. Ford may have a few old models, but they’ve got a lot of new ones as well.
I think “hiatus” was the word used to describe the TB’s future. It isn’t exactly “dead” yet. I don’t see why Ford is disappointed with the sales. They sell almost 20k copies of it a year which puts it at #1 in its class. The Euro focus is said to be somewhat too expensive for the American market. That and the U.S focus hasn’t reached the end of its life-cycle just yet (on market for only 3 years??). Ford thinks they can milk a few more years out of it. We may see a new Focus by 2007 or 3 model years from now. Till then a reskin and engine upgrades will do fine. The platform and everything else about it is fairly fresh and upto date, so no major biggy there. As for the Ls’s platform, have you forgotten about the S-type, TB, and upcoming Mustang which are all based off the same Dew98 platform as the Ls?
They’re obviously going through some hardship, and GM's incentive binges aren't helping either. I’m no market expert, but I don’t think they’re neglecting their lineup as you’ve seem to put it. They should remain fairly fresh.
I think “hiatus” was the word used to describe the TB’s future. It isn’t exactly “dead” yet. I don’t see why Ford is disappointed with the sales. They sell almost 20k copies of it a year which puts it at #1 in its class. The Euro focus is said to be somewhat too expensive for the American market. That and the U.S focus hasn’t reached the end of its life-cycle just yet (on market for only 3 years??). Ford thinks they can milk a few more years out of it. We may see a new Focus by 2007 or 3 model years from now. Till then a reskin and engine upgrades will do fine. The platform and everything else about it is fairly fresh and upto date, so no major biggy there. As for the Ls’s platform, have you forgotten about the S-type, TB, and upcoming Mustang which are all based off the same Dew98 platform as the Ls?
They’re obviously going through some hardship, and GM's incentive binges aren't helping either. I’m no market expert, but I don’t think they’re neglecting their lineup as you’ve seem to put it. They should remain fairly fresh.
Last edited by RiceEating5.0; 09-12-2003 at 12:02 AM.
09-12-2003, 09:24 AM
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Are you sure about those sales numbers for the T-bird? Isn't it more like 10k-12k in the last year? What about the sales numbers on the "Panther" cars? I can't imagine that they would be that strong. I see very few of the newer style and it seems like I see less and less as police cars. And out of the total numbers, how many are being purchased by actual costomers (not fleet, rentals, cabs, police, ect.)? Not that sales to those listed don't bring in money, after all, they are still sales and money to Ford, but I can't imagine that these sell well to the general public.
09-12-2003, 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Are you sure about those sales numbers for the T-bird? Isn't it more like 10k-12k in the last year? What about the sales numbers on the "Panther" cars? I can't imagine that they would be that strong. I see very few of the newer style and it seems like I see less and less as police cars. And out of the total numbers, how many are being purchased by actual costomers (not fleet, rentals, cabs, police, ect.)? Not that sales to those listed don't bring in money, after all, they are still sales and money to Ford, but I can't imagine that these sell well to the general public.
Are you sure about those sales numbers for the T-bird? Isn't it more like 10k-12k in the last year? What about the sales numbers on the "Panther" cars? I can't imagine that they would be that strong. I see very few of the newer style and it seems like I see less and less as police cars. And out of the total numbers, how many are being purchased by actual costomers (not fleet, rentals, cabs, police, ect.)? Not that sales to those listed don't bring in money, after all, they are still sales and money to Ford, but I can't imagine that these sell well to the general public.
Chrysler Sebring: 43,809
Ford Mustang: 42,418
Ford Thunderbird: 19,356
Mitsubishi Eclipse: 15,887
Lexus SC 430: 14,925
Mazda Miata: 14,089
Mercedes SL: 12,415
Chevrolet Corvette: 11,959
Porsche Boxster: 10,300
Honda S2000: 9,728
The TB sales goal for 2003 will also about 20,000 units. It's below the projected 25,000 units Ford had in mind 2 years ago, but it's far from dismissal.
I don't have sales # on the panther cars, but they're everywhere. What competition have they had? none really. The older demography/population in the U.S isn’t getting any smaller either, and they (and cops) seem to be the only ones buying them. That might change now if GM and Chrysler put out newer and better full-sized barges. For now, I don’t think panther sales are that bad.
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