Which model is that? The Roadster 2.5 is 119mpge on the EPA cycle, does it get 200 in CAFE? The S isn't in production and doesn't have any pertinent performance data listed on their webpage.

 

1. You dont know that and neither do I, but its what Obama and the EPA want.

2. You pick Tesla to support you arguement for cafe? A company whom is loosing millions building electric cars that nobody can afford and noone buys. Sorry but the electric car is not going to be the future of the automobile. It will have a place but will never be mainstream. The free market will eventually come up with a new fuel or a combination of new fuels.

 

I'm not sure what the future holds but I too believe that electric cars are really a stopgap to something more promising.

Some would say the sky is falling because of the need for electric vehicles and the increasing exclusivity of V8s. I thought this used to be an enthusiast board but lately we sound like a bunch of giddy hypermilers.

 

Lol, thats why I am against all this regulation crap. Let the consumer decide what they want, not the gov. We still have somewhat of a free market in the auto industry but like everything else we are loosing it.
I think natural gas is going to become huge in the transportation world. We have an abundance of it in this country and the technolgy already exists. Does CAFE apply to alternate fuels too?

 

Well I will agree with the unemployment type entitlements risk running governments broke, as they rely on taxes not profits. That is the reason all the "shovel ready jobs" "growing the economy" are a load of crap.


It also sucks when people loose their jobs. I won't argue that either. I still think its dangerous when the Government starts picking winners even when they are my or our winners. I do not think it should be bailing out companies or buying into them when they are down, just as I do not think it should be gouging them when they are up pushing for "windfall profit tax" It is not my job to find a person employment. Nor is it my job to tell them what line of work to go into or to move to from another line of work that is not doing so well. I have enough trouble taking care of just me in that area. Sometimes, not always, its that failure that motivates people to find ways to succeed elsewhere.

 

I just saw my first Fiat commercial on TV. It was for the Fiat 500 and wasn't anything special. It looks like a small tin can. They mention it starts at $15,500.

 

EPA numbers and CAFE numbers are not the same. I posted a link to the 2010 CAFE numbers a while back and Tesla was over 200mpg.

Do you work for the Obama admin? or are you just going by what some take radio nut said?

Unless there is some huge break trough in battery technology you won't see 60mpg CAFE any time soon. HCCI, electronic vales, and a few other technologies will help gas only engines, but I still believe we need much better and cheaper batteries to get to 60mpg.


I picked Tesla to show that the technology is there. Just like every other piece of technology, with time it gets better and cheaper. Have you heard of the Tesla Model S?

Pretend it is the year 2000 and I just showed you a 19" LCD display for $3000 and said "in 10 years these are going to be so cheap that every desktop PC comes with one this size or bigger". It is along the lines of that.

 

Good point.

 

I actually saw one on the road last week. It is tiny! The scary thing it was taking the freeway on-ramp.

 

Idealogy is great when you don't have to deal with reality.

Suppose the Feds didn't loan GM or Chrysler money.

GM was going to close their doors shortly after new years 2009 if Bush hadn't coughed up money to keep them going. That's reality.

If GM had shutdown permanently (with Chrysler following by year's end), that would have thrown not only those directly working for GM out on the streets. That would have also thrown those companies that supply GM with parts into the same situation. Shutting down plants and sending even more people out on the streets.

Then there's the companies that supply the suppliers with raw materials & machinery that keeps them going. Those companies would shut down, throwing more people on the streets.

Then there's the communities where these companies are and where these people live.

Now.....

You have all these people drawing unemployment. There's also these people whose pensions are guaranteed by the government. Then there's the fact that those unemployed do get state supported medical coverage.

Those are paid for not just by the feds, but also by the state.

Now, you are already in the midst of the biggest recession since the great depression. That means revenue (taxes) have slowed to a trickle. That's both the feds as well as YOUR state and local governments.

Combine that tremendous reduction in revenue (people already not working and businesses already not paying as much taxes because they are making a lot less) and you suddenly throw every person who works directly or indirectly in the automobile industry as well as the communities that depend on them, the people who are paying on homes, and so forth.

Simply doing as you propose would have instantly turned Michagan into a 3rd world country. It would have sent Ohio, and Illinois into bankruptcy. The fallout would have decimated pretty much every state's finances on the entire western United States and would have cascaded across the entire United States.

The cost of letting GM and Chrysler go under (in lost revenue, increased unemployment, pensions, medical spending, grants to states to enable them simply to have money to keep the lights on, as well as undoubtedly some type of relief to the multitude who were about to lose their homes) would wind up in the TRILLIONS or dollars!!

Now, it doesn't take much more than a 1st grade math education to figure out that "TRILLIONS" is a whole lot more than "BILLIONS", and it doesn't take more than a room tempreature IQ to realize that if the US Auto Industry was allowed to fail, it would take the economy of the United States of America with it. And you thinks things have been bad already?!

What the Feds did was hit the issue 110% correctly.

They made damn sure that they got to the root of what the problems were first. They issued a report on it that was made public and posted on this very website that hit the nail on the head. Then they laid out terms that addressed those issues. Chrysler needed product that they didn't have the resources to create and GM was too big, burecratic, and had a culture that put cars almost as an afterthought.

The Feds bankrolled the cash for GM to turn itself around and the UAW coughed up most all the cash Chrysler needed.

Today, you look at GM and compare it to 2008. Ditto Chrysler.

Then you look at the pricetag (keeping in mind that most all the money the feds loaned either has been or will be paid back).

Compare that pricetag with what it would have cost the country in both economic and industrial collaspe.

In the real world, where people have to actually make the hard decisions and actually weigh things out without hiding behind some type of dogma, the right thing was actually to step in and try and save the industry.

Only those people who don't know any better, have never had to weigh financial options, or had to be responsible for anything other than themselves would look at this as "socialism".

So, if you want to stake a position believing that the Feds should never ever step in, that's your right.

However, in this instance, THEY were right.

And not only are you wrong in this, you are taking a view that is insanely irresponsible.

Than god you aren't running the country.

 

Reality???? The only reality of your post was a worst case scenerio. Who is to say another company would not have come along and bought up GM on a bankruptcy firesale, same with Chrysler.

 

Guy never said another company wouldn't have "come along and bought up GM on a bankruptcy firesale" or would have done the same with Chrysler.

Guy said that unemployment would be through the roof, pensions would be dumped on the Gov't, taxes wouldn't have been paid, and several cities would have filed for bankruptcy.

Guy is right. The U.S. Pension fund is ALREADY under funded. Just ask Delphie retiree's who were thrown into the U.S. Pension fund who now receive less than half of their retirement they earned before Delphi went under.

But, lets get back to your thought process that SOMEBODY would have stepped in and purchased GM and Chryslers "good" assets.

Who, in the market we were in during these times would have FINANCED a new buyer for what was left of GM and Chrysler? Yup...nobody. There was NO money available...anywhere.

 

China. They have lots of money and want to buy.

 

Really? Is that why Hummer, SAAB, and Saturn are all Chinese owned?

 

Hey ya, thats a good idea nothing like giving out some more keys to the country (as if China doesn't have enough crap to muscle the US with already).


People bitch about foreign oil being a security risk, but letting anybody with the money in to pick over whatever industry they want apart just because they can is a risk as well.

Its been well discussed here how intertwined a company like GM is to our economy, imagine China getting ahold of it. All those jobs and connected industries become a power bargining chip for them when it comes to whatever US policy they dont agree with on top of the power they already have.