A few observations about a new GM car
10-26-2007, 04:38 PM
#31
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So what your saying is that 'techy features' (my words to sum up what I get when reading your post) matter to you the most, right? Well in that case Buick isn't the brand for you, Saturn is. The Saturn Astra will be much more your type of car than a Buick Lucerne which is about 2 class sizes bigger than your GTI, and therefore worth more money.
Saturn Astra = neat car. It also originated in Europe. If it's built superior to other low-priced cars in its class, I will regard it as such. But to be brought in at the $15k range, I don't think it will have what I'm looking for even if it's built well.
I only keep cars for a couple of years. Free loaners for warranty repairs, and the end of a couple of years, the resale value will still be great (let's compare the value of a MSRP 30k lucerne to my GTI in 5-6 years, ok?) I'll sell it to some kid that wants to put a chip in and make it a schnitzel burner. The Lucerne will be sitting on a wholesale lot.
EDIT: Just thought of a "techy" car: The 2008 Ford Focus with the eerie speech recognition thing. I forsee accidents, and a lot of yelling at the dash of a Ford Focus to make things work right!
10-26-2007, 05:26 PM
#32
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The low-hanging fruit here is the performance--not the top, but pretty good. Standard HID's. Extremely safe. And a zillion things you don't notice until you drive one for a while, like...
A finished engine bay with insulated hood (noise control), brushed scuff plates for every door, finished door jambs and smoothed welds. Buttons that have a purposeful tactful feel and audible and substantial "click," backlighting EVERYWHERE, even dome light buttons, trunk releases, fuel door releases. Aluminum trim accents (nope, not plastic!), a host of materials. Soft on the touch surfaces, fabric or leather on the "rest" surfaces, and solid materials for everything else (rubberized dash, heavy padded armrest. Auto down (and up!) windows for ALL windows and switches, heated mirrors, 10-speaker audio, integrated laser-cut key/remote, adjustable headrests for ALL seats, struts for the hood and rear to aid smooth closing. HUGE center display in the dash (trip computer with avg/instant fuel economy, drive time, service reminders, 2nd trip odo, and car "setup" screens for personal preferences. Headlamp washers, standard air filtration, Climatic (you set the temp, it holds, instead of HOT, or COLD), a felt-lined glovebox with light and LOCKABLE, rear heat/air ducts, rear seat pass thru (with console). Electronic brake-force distribution, ESP, antilock (all standard/regulatory) PLUS side seat, and front/rear outboard head curtain airbags.. AND rear side thorax bags. Oh, and electro-mechanical power steering with engineering for torque-steer, speed, and road pitch adaptation.
God...my fingers are tired. Plus a bunch of strange little functions to enhance your driving experience like a rear wiper that turns on when you put the car in reverse if the front wipers are on, an HVAC unit that automatically engages "recirc" when traveling in reverse. Programmable speed warnings, mute buttons on the steering wheel, and lastly...a sunroof that ACTUALLY RETRACTS INTO THE ROOF and allows you to view through the entire opening. GM doesn't understand that one. Did I mention the stupid little toys and letters and tokens of thanks that VW sends you for SIX months after you buy the stupid thing?
The problem is that Toyota is very close to eating GM's lunch again, Buicks aren't selling, and GM is basically attempting to change their ENTIRE brand lineup to compete.
The American cars that I LIKE...The G6 'vert is neat...bland, but neat. I like retractable hardtops (but I'd end up buying an EOS). The Cobalt SS (sorry, now "Sport") is great. Acadia - one hot SUV. And the Solstice (but not the Sky...styling thing for me). I don't think ANY of them, save for the Acadia, is built well though.
Drove a G6 sedan, Mustang (V6), Fusion (V6), Lucerne, Lacrosse, Focus, and a Taurus all in the last year.
The GTI is close, but it's junior in the grand scheme of things. I'd love to have an A5 or S5. Maybe a BMW 5. EDIT: Sorry, read the question wrong. $40k now? A well equipped 328i or base 335. An A4 or a loaded passat.
Btw...the GTI has heated seats too (optional), yes it has an "ipod" adaptor, the GTI also has 18" wheels, plus electronic locking front diff.. And a 10-speaker in-dash 6cd changer with Sirius, full text display, redundant display (instrument cluster) and steering wheel controls.
The SS is faster. But sit in one and then go sit in the other. Drive each of them and pay attention to quality. It's the only reason I don't like it...cheap inside. Oh, and the fact that it has 1,000,000 brothers and sisters in the "base trim/hubcap" rental market.
I think the journalists were quite impressed in 2005 when the MKV GTI was unveiled. There's better though, it's not the best car ever made.
A finished engine bay with insulated hood (noise control), brushed scuff plates for every door, finished door jambs and smoothed welds. Buttons that have a purposeful tactful feel and audible and substantial "click," backlighting EVERYWHERE, even dome light buttons, trunk releases, fuel door releases. Aluminum trim accents (nope, not plastic!), a host of materials. Soft on the touch surfaces, fabric or leather on the "rest" surfaces, and solid materials for everything else (rubberized dash, heavy padded armrest. Auto down (and up!) windows for ALL windows and switches, heated mirrors, 10-speaker audio, integrated laser-cut key/remote, adjustable headrests for ALL seats, struts for the hood and rear to aid smooth closing. HUGE center display in the dash (trip computer with avg/instant fuel economy, drive time, service reminders, 2nd trip odo, and car "setup" screens for personal preferences. Headlamp washers, standard air filtration, Climatic (you set the temp, it holds, instead of HOT, or COLD), a felt-lined glovebox with light and LOCKABLE, rear heat/air ducts, rear seat pass thru (with console). Electronic brake-force distribution, ESP, antilock (all standard/regulatory) PLUS side seat, and front/rear outboard head curtain airbags.. AND rear side thorax bags. Oh, and electro-mechanical power steering with engineering for torque-steer, speed, and road pitch adaptation.
God...my fingers are tired. Plus a bunch of strange little functions to enhance your driving experience like a rear wiper that turns on when you put the car in reverse if the front wipers are on, an HVAC unit that automatically engages "recirc" when traveling in reverse. Programmable speed warnings, mute buttons on the steering wheel, and lastly...a sunroof that ACTUALLY RETRACTS INTO THE ROOF and allows you to view through the entire opening. GM doesn't understand that one. Did I mention the stupid little toys and letters and tokens of thanks that VW sends you for SIX months after you buy the stupid thing?
Honest question: Are you actually directing that quote towards me, or are you making a general statement? I would have to guess the second being that I drive your opinion of "better" all the time with people getting rid of them, and haven't been impressed. Your second line of "every GM car you've ever owned" shows I hit a nerve. I'm happy with all of them, seeing as how I still have them. But the question lies with what you are tring to get to. Are you saying that other manufacturers don't use common parts, engines, and switchgear between lines? I think you and I both know they do. So.......where's the problem? .
Drove a G6 sedan, Mustang (V6), Fusion (V6), Lucerne, Lacrosse, Focus, and a Taurus all in the last year.
The GTI is close, but it's junior in the grand scheme of things. I'd love to have an A5 or S5. Maybe a BMW 5. EDIT: Sorry, read the question wrong. $40k now? A well equipped 328i or base 335. An A4 or a loaded passat.
Can you tell me how a GTI blows the SS S/C out of the market? Have you driven one? Under your assesment of what makes a great car, the SS has features that the GTI doesn't have standard (Heated leather seats, I-pod Adapter, 18" wheels, High Output Audio System), some you can't get on GTI (OnStar, XM, LSD), and the SS is faster to boot. Even on the road corse, GTI is no match for the American SS S/C. Take C&D's Lightning Lap comparo from last year for example..
The SS is faster. But sit in one and then go sit in the other. Drive each of them and pay attention to quality. It's the only reason I don't like it...cheap inside. Oh, and the fact that it has 1,000,000 brothers and sisters in the "base trim/hubcap" rental market.
I think the journalists were quite impressed in 2005 when the MKV GTI was unveiled. There's better though, it's not the best car ever made.
Last edited by 97QuasarBlue3.8; 10-26-2007 at 05:47 PM.
10-26-2007, 05:31 PM
#33
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Car and Driver disagreed with you when they ran the SS S/C, the GTI, and the Civic Si in their Lightning Lap. I'll buy the materials argument, but not "engineering." 
The interior surfaces may not be as nice to touch for the dash fondlers, but the ride/handling, braking, and overall performance of the SS was rated higher than the other two (not to mention it smoked them in lap times).
While the Cobalt and Rabbit/GTI more or less compete, it isn't what I'd call direct, as the VWs are sort of a premium compact (and priced accordingly).
The interior surfaces may not be as nice to touch for the dash fondlers, but the ride/handling, braking, and overall performance of the SS was rated higher than the other two (not to mention it smoked them in lap times).
While the Cobalt and Rabbit/GTI more or less compete, it isn't what I'd call direct, as the VWs are sort of a premium compact (and priced accordingly).
The SS is hands-down faster. I would agree with the "premium compact" statement, and you definitely do pay for the extra niceties in the GTI. But when better build quality is what you are after, it's worth the price.
Back to the Lucerne...There are FAR better performers with better quality for $40k. So if you bought the Lucerne, would you be paying for the lackluster performance, or typical GM build quality (even if said car is reliable)? Or are you getting ripped off by GM?
Last edited by 97QuasarBlue3.8; 10-26-2007 at 05:34 PM.
10-27-2007, 01:47 PM
#34
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My Dads ETC with the Northstar V8 gets 28-29 mpg on the highway all the time. I don't know how the Lucerne is geared with the Northstar V8 but it should be able to get to close to that if geared right
10-27-2007, 02:56 PM
#35
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Not sure why there is so much hate for the 3800? 
The only problem with the engine is the 4spd turd box GM sticks behind it.
I could not find a grahp of the 3.5 DOHC Toy motor, only its peak numbers, but here is a graph of the 3800:
As you can see it has over 200ft/lbs from 1000prm up, plenty of power and all in the everyday useable range.
Stats on the 3.5 DOHC Toy motor:
3.5-liter DOHC 24-valve Dual
VVT-i V6
268 hp @ 6200 rpm ( 226 lb.-ft @ 6200 )
248 lb.-ft. @ 4700 rpm (222 hp @4700 )
It devlopes more power, but at a much higher rpm.
The only problem with the engine is the 4spd turd box GM sticks behind it.
I could not find a grahp of the 3.5 DOHC Toy motor, only its peak numbers, but here is a graph of the 3800:
As you can see it has over 200ft/lbs from 1000prm up, plenty of power and all in the everyday useable range.
Stats on the 3.5 DOHC Toy motor:
3.5-liter DOHC 24-valve Dual
VVT-i V6
268 hp @ 6200 rpm ( 226 lb.-ft @ 6200 )
248 lb.-ft. @ 4700 rpm (222 hp @4700 )
It devlopes more power, but at a much higher rpm.
10-27-2007, 08:15 PM
#36
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The LaX and Lucerne are two cars that were DOA. Neither provides any sort of major benifit over the competition. Why spend the money on a LaX when the Aura and Malibu outclass it every which way imagineable?
Why get a Lucerne when you can get a CTS or a G8? Both of those cars have 1203948203840234x better quality then the Lax.
Only Buick worth talking about is the Enclave.
The Super FWD cars are even more of a joke.
Why get a Lucerne when you can get a CTS or a G8? Both of those cars have 1203948203840234x better quality then the Lax.
Only Buick worth talking about is the Enclave.
The Super FWD cars are even more of a joke.
10-27-2007, 08:23 PM
#37
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The LaX and Lucerne are two cars that were DOA. Neither provides any sort of major benifit over the competition. Why spend the money on a LaX when the Aura and Malibu outclass it every which way imagineable?
Why get a Lucerne when you can get a CTS or a G8? Both of those cars have 1203948203840234x better quality then the Lax.
Only Buick worth talking about is the Enclave.
The Super FWD cars are even more of a joke.
Why get a Lucerne when you can get a CTS or a G8? Both of those cars have 1203948203840234x better quality then the Lax.
Only Buick worth talking about is the Enclave.
The Super FWD cars are even more of a joke.
But you are right...if you're going to stick to GM cars, why not snap up something that's got more overall "value"?
10-27-2007, 08:27 PM
#38
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Someone mentioned earlier that there are a class of people out there that are "lifers" with the Buick brand. If they're trading in their 15 year old LeSabre or Park Avenue, the Lucerne/LaX might be a big step up for them. From what I gather, they're an aging population who would also cross-shop a Lincoln Towncar or Ford Crown Vic (if they carried forward the Crown Vic for the public after 2006).
But you are right...if you're going to stick to GM cars, why not snap up something that's got more overall "value"?
But you are right...if you're going to stick to GM cars, why not snap up something that's got more overall "value"?
The Panther cars from Ford are aging slowly. They are nothing more then fleet-only cars at this point. Retaining the die hards, I can see that, but two models that claim to do the same thing? Something tells me that most of Buick's customers wont be "repeat" customers due to age. They are nice cars, but lacking a lot when compared to other cars, including other GM cars.
10-28-2007, 11:26 PM
#40
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Full article: Clicky here
...The GTI's Electronic Differential Lock (EDL), for example, is not a substitute for a real mechanical limited-slip differential like the helical device used in the Civic. In fact, EDL does nothing to bias drive torque. The GTI's transaxle uses an open differential which, using the ABS sensors to detect slip, applies brakeforce on the wheel that's slipping. This has the exact opposite effect of a real limited-slip differential, lowering cornering speed instead of increasing it. Plus, during hard driving, EDL waits until the inside tire is spinning to apply the brake. It's an ineffective annoyance that simply doesn't cut it in an enthusiast car. And it can't be disabled...
It's certainly not a replacement for a limited-slip unit, and it only works up until 40 km/hr (whatever that is in MPH). So at speed, it's an open diff car with the usual electronic stability and ASR programs unless disabled with the factory switch on the console. A limitation of the car? Definitely. I would argue that EDL is more useful in real world situations where the car is more likely to encounter no-traction environments versus a racing environment in which traction is a limitation of cornering and speed, and generally not road surface. LSD is about transferring the power to the ground when one tire loses it, whereas EDL is a braking function. Is that important? You decide, but we've established the GTI is definitely not the top performer of the hot hatches.
10-29-2007, 08:19 AM
#41
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From an Edmunds Article: Road Test "2006 Honda Civic Si vs. 2006 Volkswagen GTI"
Full article: Clicky here
...The GTI's Electronic Differential Lock (EDL), for example, is not a substitute for a real mechanical limited-slip differential like the helical device used in the Civic. In fact, EDL does nothing to bias drive torque. The GTI's transaxle uses an open differential which, using the ABS sensors to detect slip, applies brakeforce on the wheel that's slipping. This has the exact opposite effect of a real limited-slip differential, lowering cornering speed instead of increasing it. Plus, during hard driving, EDL waits until the inside tire is spinning to apply the brake. It's an ineffective annoyance that simply doesn't cut it in an enthusiast car. And it can't be disabled...
It's certainly not a replacement for a limited-slip unit, and it only works up until 40 km/hr (whatever that is in MPH). So at speed, it's an open diff car with the usual electronic stability and ASR programs unless disabled with the factory switch on the console. A limitation of the car? Definitely. I would argue that EDL is more useful in real world situations where the car is more likely to encounter no-traction environments versus a racing environment in which traction is a limitation of cornering and speed, and generally not road surface. LSD is about transferring the power to the ground when one tire loses it, whereas EDL is a braking function. Is that important? You decide, but we've established the GTI is definitely not the top performer of the hot hatches.
Full article: Clicky here
...The GTI's Electronic Differential Lock (EDL), for example, is not a substitute for a real mechanical limited-slip differential like the helical device used in the Civic. In fact, EDL does nothing to bias drive torque. The GTI's transaxle uses an open differential which, using the ABS sensors to detect slip, applies brakeforce on the wheel that's slipping. This has the exact opposite effect of a real limited-slip differential, lowering cornering speed instead of increasing it. Plus, during hard driving, EDL waits until the inside tire is spinning to apply the brake. It's an ineffective annoyance that simply doesn't cut it in an enthusiast car. And it can't be disabled...
It's certainly not a replacement for a limited-slip unit, and it only works up until 40 km/hr (whatever that is in MPH). So at speed, it's an open diff car with the usual electronic stability and ASR programs unless disabled with the factory switch on the console. A limitation of the car? Definitely. I would argue that EDL is more useful in real world situations where the car is more likely to encounter no-traction environments versus a racing environment in which traction is a limitation of cornering and speed, and generally not road surface. LSD is about transferring the power to the ground when one tire loses it, whereas EDL is a braking function. Is that important? You decide, but we've established the GTI is definitely not the top performer of the hot hatches.
10-29-2007, 12:31 PM
#42
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Location: Roch, NY
Posts: 395
Lol @ the guys argueing performance numbers of family sedans. Everyone used to bash American manufacturers saying there is more to a car then horsepower but now that their standard engine is "underpowered" in the segment it's suddenly the entire problem.
I'll compare my 3800SC Regal to my mom's 2006 Avalon. I get about 23 mpg around town she gets around 25(guess who actually goes WOT every now and then), and even though the Avalon has much steeper gearing to free up acceleration it is still gutless out of the hole, I've been pampered with low end torque my whole life and I can't kick the need for it. The Avalon(like most other imports) uses a small, high rpm peak horsepower/torqueband with narrow gears to keep the engine the only place it makes power AND at WOT, this will give you a good quarter mile time but the car feels slow in around town and at any throttle level but wide open. Drive a 3800; there is power everywhere, my Regal likely makes about 280whp and has out run more LS1's and turbo cars with 300whp+ then I can remember.
With that said I'd never buy a Lucerne, cause I hate FWD, I don't like see chunks of metal in my tranny pan.
I'll compare my 3800SC Regal to my mom's 2006 Avalon. I get about 23 mpg around town she gets around 25(guess who actually goes WOT every now and then), and even though the Avalon has much steeper gearing to free up acceleration it is still gutless out of the hole, I've been pampered with low end torque my whole life and I can't kick the need for it. The Avalon(like most other imports) uses a small, high rpm peak horsepower/torqueband with narrow gears to keep the engine the only place it makes power AND at WOT, this will give you a good quarter mile time but the car feels slow in around town and at any throttle level but wide open. Drive a 3800; there is power everywhere, my Regal likely makes about 280whp and has out run more LS1's and turbo cars with 300whp+ then I can remember.
With that said I'd never buy a Lucerne, cause I hate FWD, I don't like see chunks of metal in my tranny pan.
10-29-2007, 12:39 PM
#43
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Pewee Valley, KY
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Lol @ the guys argueing performance numbers of family sedans. Everyone used to bash American manufacturers saying there is more to a car then horsepower but now that their standard engine is "underpowered" in the segment it's suddenly the entire problem.
I'll compare my 3800SC Regal to my mom's 2006 Avalon. I get about 23 mpg around town she gets around 25(guess who actually goes WOT every now and then), and even though the Avalon has much steeper gearing to free up acceleration it is still gutless out of the hole, I've been pampered with low end torque my whole life and I can't kick the need for it. The Avalon(like most other imports) uses a small, high rpm peak horsepower/torqueband with narrow gears to keep the engine the only place it makes power AND at WOT, this will give you a good quarter mile time but the car feels slow in around town and at any throttle level but wide open. Drive a 3800; there is power everywhere, my Regal likely makes about 280whp and has out run more LS1's and turbo cars with 300whp+ then I can remember.
With that said I'd never buy a Lucerne, cause I hate FWD, I don't like see chunks of metal in my tranny pan.
I'll compare my 3800SC Regal to my mom's 2006 Avalon. I get about 23 mpg around town she gets around 25(guess who actually goes WOT every now and then), and even though the Avalon has much steeper gearing to free up acceleration it is still gutless out of the hole, I've been pampered with low end torque my whole life and I can't kick the need for it. The Avalon(like most other imports) uses a small, high rpm peak horsepower/torqueband with narrow gears to keep the engine the only place it makes power AND at WOT, this will give you a good quarter mile time but the car feels slow in around town and at any throttle level but wide open. Drive a 3800; there is power everywhere, my Regal likely makes about 280whp and has out run more LS1's and turbo cars with 300whp+ then I can remember.
With that said I'd never buy a Lucerne, cause I hate FWD, I don't like see chunks of metal in my tranny pan.
Anyone want to help me out?
10-29-2007, 01:27 PM
#45
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Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 1,023
The argument of "there's more to a car than horsepower" is correct, and one of my assertations in this thread all along. With the LaX and Lucerne as of late, you can't really even say in the face of only 197hp, "yeah, but it's a really nicely made car!" It's just big...
I owned a 3.8 in one of my Camaros. I LOVED the 2k-4500k pull, as it was all very usable power. But that was in a car that was conceived probably somewhere in 1989/1990 for its 1993 launch, and a motor that was dropped in to the first F-body in 1995.5. 200hp was great for a V6 car during those years.
Last edited by 97QuasarBlue3.8; 10-29-2007 at 01:30 PM.