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Old Feb 3, 2008 | 12:03 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
If anyone has any proof of price gouging, I'd sure like to hear it.
The former subprime mortgage investors jumping into oil are largely to blame, but an alkylate shortage means prices stay high even if demand goes down

NEW YORK — Get ready for another surge in gasoline prices.

Experts are predicting that prices, which jumped by almost a dollar a gallon in each of the last two springs in many parts of the United States, will spike again this year as refiners and gas stations switch from winter- to summer-blended fuels.

The increases, starting as early as February in southern California, could push the average national price to a record $3.50 a gallon or more by June.

That would be 17 percent higher than today's average of just under $3 a gallon, which already is about 80 cents a gallon higher than year-ago levels thanks to the surge of crude oil that took futures prices briefly to $100 a barrel. Prices in urban areas on each coast could approach $4 a gallon.

And the reason for the spring price shocks? Analysts say it's linked to a shortage of alkylate, a little-known and expensive gasoline additive that some in the industry are calling "liquid gold." It has become a must-have ingredient since refiners stopped using MTBE two years ago when the potentially cancer-causing additive was found to be seeping into ground water.

The alkylate shortage has become the most important driver of summer gas prices, said Doug Leggate, an analyst at Citigroup Global Markets. "Supply of (alkylate) will set the price of summer gasoline — not inventory levels," he said.

Oil companies deny they are purposely limiting production of alkylate, which like gasoline, jet fuel and asphalt is a byproduct of the oil refining process. But only recently have some started studying how they can boost output, and alkylate prices today are more than 15 percent higher than spot gasoline prices. That means overall costs will jump when it is added in larger quantities to summer-blend fuel.

Without additives, gasoline doesn't burn completely, increasing tailpipe air pollution. And untreated gas evaporates more quickly in hot weather, potentially causing vapor lock when it changes from a liquid to a gas and blocks fuel lines.

The federal government long ago required refiners to boost the oxygen content of summer-blend gasoline to make it burn more completely, a problem that was solved by adding MTBE and, more recently, ethanol.

But ethanol also has a high evaporation rate, so refiners increasingly have turned to alkylate, which Tom Kloza, publisher and chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service in Wall, N.J., calls the "magic bullet" in making summer gasoline.

Alkylate and other gasoline additives don't raise the same safety issues as MTBE because they don't bond with water as effectively as MTBE did, analysts say.

Demand for alkylate changes with the seasons, falling in autumn and rising in the spring. On average, alkylate makes up about 10 percent of a gallon of gas, though that rises to as much as 15 percent in summer. But making more of it is not as simple as throwing a switch since the underlying chemical properties of oil limit how much of any one refined petroleum product can be produced.

On average, about 44 percent of each barrel of oil ends up as gasoline, 22 percent as diesel fuel and heating oil, 9 percent as jet fuel, and about 4 percent each as heavy fuel oil and liquefied petroleum gas, according to the Energy Department. The remainder is comprised of smaller products and additives.

The refining process is loud, hot and smelly. Boilers separate, or "crack," oil into new substances by subjecting it to high temperatures and pressure. As different products are boiled out, pipes carry them to other boilers or vessels where they're further refined, mixed with other substances or cleaned of pollutants and toxins.

Alkylate is made via a chemical reaction sparked when olefin fluids and isobutane — two of the smaller byproducts of the main gasoline producing unit — are mixed with acid.

"As opposed to the (gasoline unit) that cracks big components into small, this one takes two components and basically combines them," said Mark Fligner, director of planning and economics at Valero Energy Corp.'s refinery in Paulsboro, N.J., across the Delaware river and just south of Philadelphia.

Owners of about two-thirds of U.S. refineries have invested the $100 million or more it takes to add an alkylate unit. The rest have to buy alkylate on the spot market if they want to use it as additive in their gasoline supplies.

Refiners aren't gaming the system, purposely limiting alkylate production to boost gas prices, said John Auers, senior vice president at Turner Mason & Co., a Dallas consultancy. "They're not because they can't," he said. "You can't make more alkylate than you have feedstocks."

But there are tradeoffs that every refiner must weigh. For example, olefins and isobutane are in high demand for use in producing other lucrative products like plastics. Refiners can tweak their main gasoline producing unit to make more olefins and isobutane, but that would cut the gasoline output.

Alkylate prices have jumped from 77 cents a gallon in the summer of 2001 — when MTBE was still in use — to nearly $3 a gallon at points over the past two summers. Wednesday's price on the spot market was $2.72 a gallon, 40 cents more than the spot price of gasoline, according to Platts. Retail prices for gas are higher because things like state and federal taxes are added. In recent summers, that spot market differential has jumped as high as 60 cents.

Refiners place the blame for spring gas price increases on crude costs, environmental regulations that have increased the overall cost of refining, and their inability to expand or build new refineries fast enough to keep up with gasoline demand.

John Pickering, vice president and general manager at the Paulsboro refinery, said Valero makes enough alkylate to meet its needs, but concedes that there is a national shortage of the additive in the spring and summer.

Other refiners contacted by The Associated Press said they are reluctant for competitive reasons to talk about how they blend gasoline, or whether they face alkylate shortages.

What is known, however, is that refiners are hiring companies such as UOP LLC of Des Plaines, Ill., to determine whether they can increase the capacity of their existing alkylation units. "In the last year or so, there has been a significant uptick (in business)," said Ashis Banerji, director for refining at UOP, which licenses alkylation technology to refiners.

And the 36 percent of domestic refineries that don't have alkylation units are looking at adding them.

"Our impression is that refineries are moving as fast as they possibly can to add alkylation capacity," said Jim Pawloski, business director at UOP competitor DuPont Clean Technologies, a unit of DuPont Co. He said his unit's business has jumped five-fold over the past five years and will likely double again this year.

The steep jump in summer alkylate prices has also caught the attention of at least two companies that used to produce MTBE. Enterprise Products Partners LP and Texas Petrochemicals Inc., both of Houston, say they're closely studying whether to convert idled MTBE plants into alkylate factories.

That also highlights the conundrum that is alkylate: If too many refiners decide to spend big bucks to crank up production, the premium prices now enjoyed by alkylate makers could disappear.

Refiners have to weigh the cost of such an investment against the incremental cost of simply buying the extra alkylate they need. "I'm not sure that it would be economical," said Jeff Hazle, technical director at the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association.

But if production doesn't rise, American motorists will be faced with big jumps in spring gas prices for years to come.
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 12:11 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by TOO Z MAXX
Are reading any of my posts. I am an electrical contractor. I used to drive my Dodge Ram to work everyday. It gets 15 mpg. My Civic gets 45mpg. It doesnt take a genius to realize I cut my gas bill by 2/3.
No offense but you have not got a clue how this all works when it comes to gas prices. If you think the price of gas has everything to do with SUV's you really are ignorant. The main reason is about 2.5 billion people in India and China also want the same oil the rest of the world wants, and will pay a premium for it. Its quite simple supply and demand.
So in your eyes how would you determine how much Exxon should make? Should this apply to all business's or just oil companies? And who should be the one who decides how much companies are allowed to make?
You dont like oil companies dont buy gas, or use alot less of it, like I did by buying a more fuel efficient car.
Actually about $30-$35 is the fear factor that oil speculators are building into the price right now and has absolutely nothing to do with supply and demand. They have more to do with the price being so high right now more than anyone else, so I don't blame the oil companies for that. The article I just posted also shows why gasoline prices will rise even if demand is weak this spring. The only thing good to come of it will be that alternative fuels will come about faster as a result.
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 01:20 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Z28x:
Energy isn't the same as other industries. No one would care if GM or Apple made huge money, but when it comes to things that people need to live like energy, food, water, etc.. they get pissed.
Exactly, something often overlooked or used by some skewed comparison.

I don't buy $100 Jeans, I've yet to pay more than $25...And I don't need to buy a pair everyday or twice a week, but I do gas.


Originally Posted by TOO Z MAXX:
They are not taking advantage of anyone. You do not have to buy their product. Walk to work, car pool or buy gas from a competiter. Or do what I did and buy a 13 year Honda Civic. Yes I use my Civic at work all the time. i do not need to drive my work truck to work everyday. Most people dont want to change to save money. Its much easier to sit around and bitch and complain and blame someone else for their lifestyle. Gas use is starting to decrease nationwide and this will eventually drive the price down some.
You seem to have it all figured out, huh?
Should a contractor walk to work, carrying his ladder, saws, and materials?...

This nation was built on raodways and motorvehicles.
Now, we can suddenly walk to work?
Not everyone has it so easy. All of our buisnesses have spread out, there is NO MORE "central city" lifestyle. Where all of the jobs and all of the stores etc are located downtown. At least not for most of us. There's malls, shopping villages, and office building scattered everywhere.
Walking is NOT an option...most of the time.

Drive a Civic, load it with all your tools, and the advertised EPA milage goes out the window, you may save a little, but not worth the hassle and aggravation, and certainly would'nt take the abuse.

Certainly there are times this would be appropriate, but one shoe does NOT fit all.

I also could walk to the store and back...but would'nt be healthy to do so in the rain or cold, carrying a weeks groceries etc..

Yes, we could buy gas from a competitor and save a nickle, where I could call another electrical contractor and save thousands, shop a competing dealership and do the same...not apples to apples.

I'm not pickin' or hatin' on you, just think there's way too much oversimplifying going on.

Problem is, people having to majorly adjust their lifestyles b/c of high gas prices are the main reason we're in a recesion right now...they can't afford to buy the goods they used to.

Forget cutting the FED, cut gas prices!

Remember, when gas prices go up...so does your food, drinks, and everything else...pass the buck is a favorite game in capitolism.

Some of "Proud's" predictions coming true...

Along this same line of logic...all of us who have lost or losing a manufacturing job due to American company's outsourcing, should go to work for their competitor's domestic transplant.

Last edited by 90rocz; Feb 3, 2008 at 01:28 AM.
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 02:09 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by 90rocz
Yes, we could buy gas from a competitor and save a nickle, where I could call another electrical contractor and save thousands, shop a competing dealership and do the same...not apples to apples.
That's a good point. At this point in time, what options do consumers have?
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 02:15 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by 90rocz
You seem to have it all figured out, huh?
Should a contractor walk to work, carrying his ladder, saws, and materials?...
No he shouldnt, but does the same contractor need a 1 ton dually to change a light bulb? I still have my Dodge Ram for work but I dont need it everyday. I coudnt make a living without my truck, and most contractors cant, but they could also learn to be more efficient.
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 02:33 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by SSbaby
OK you win.
Its not a contest


Originally Posted by SSbaby
You instead chose to go off on a tangent to bring India and China into this. Is that your real conclusion as I don't see how Exxon could make money off India and China.
If you cant understand this then you need to go educate yourself about the subject. Like I said supply and demand. The price of oil goes up because everyone wants it. Its the same reason why super bowl tickets go fo $1,000.00


Originally Posted by SSbaby
No, he didn't take action. He did not state in any way how he reduced his dependency on oil. He is still dependent on oil by driving a Civic. He is only attempting to reduce his fuel bill even though he is continuing to make the oil barons prosper. NEWSFLASH: A small vehicle does not stifle profits made by oil companies. Oil companies know that and they will compensate.
Buying a car that gets 3 times the gas mileage is not taking action? Even with a bunch of my tools in my car I still get close to 40mpg. Basic math is your friend. Its no big secret that if we all used less the price will drop.
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 02:40 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by scott9050
Actually about $30-$35 is the fear factor that oil speculators are building into the price right now and has absolutely nothing to do with supply and demand. They have more to do with the price being so high right now more than anyone else, so I don't blame the oil companies for that. The article I just posted also shows why gasoline prices will rise even if demand is weak this spring. The only thing good to come of it will be that alternative fuels will come about faster as a result.
The falling dollar also has not helped the price of oil.
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 03:47 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by TOO Z MAXX
The falling dollar also has not helped the price of oil.
That statement would not be correct as oil is sold in $USD. In fact, most international trade is done in $USD but recently the Euro has been a more stable currency. I'm sorry sir but you are out of your depth in this discussion.

The last time a country tried to sell oil in non-US currency, the US went to war with that country and apprehended their leader... http://www.feasta.org/documents/review2/nunan.htm
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 08:44 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by TOO Z MAXX
Like what? Have Exxon work for a loss? How would you like to go to work and have them say we are paying you to much, you need to work for a lot less.
Dude, read the papers. It's been happening for the last couple years Remember GM? Delphi? Ford? Contract time??? Oh, yeah, then when they reach an agreement and the "uneducated blue collar worker" takes concessions, the top dogs give themselves a hefty bonus and an arm breaking pat on the back.

Last edited by MichiganSkip; Feb 3, 2008 at 08:56 AM.
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 09:16 AM
  #55  
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Here's my take on the gas price situation.
We all know the typical American will spend every dime he has. Most all Americans have a "fixed" amount of money to spend each month on rent/house payment. groceries, car, insurance, utilities, etc. according to how much their paycheck is. Now if the price of gas goes up, he/she has less to spend on groceries, so the grocer takes a hit and sells less. He also has to pay more for his items because of the cost of fuel to get items shipped to the store. Now, not only the consumer is affected, but another business is too. Now multiply that scenario by 100 other businesses like the lumber company, the pharmacy, the clothing store, the car dealership, etc. You see how the price of a gallon of gas affects not just the driver, but the rest of th economy? All because someone who owns a business that sells a product that NO ONE can live without has decided to use every excuse they can fabricate to profit. Yeah, what I'm saying is that if Exxon and Mobil, and the rest would take "less" profit, that would bolster the rest of the economy.

I can't believe the excuses I've heard the last few years as to why gas prices need to rise. everything from " a prediction of a cold winter" to "shortage of storage space". Oh, let's not forget the commodities brokers who manipulate the prices they pay. We used to hear from the oil companies that they don't have enough refineries to keep up with demand, and that's one reason why prices are high, along with the cost of building new ones. Why not take a few of those "billion dollars" profit and build a few?? And then there's the environmental fiasco between the people of NW Indiana and BP last year.

There's nothing wrong with making a profit, until it hurt the rest of the economy
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 09:17 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by SSbaby
That statement would not be correct as oil is sold in $USD. In fact, most international trade is done in $USD but recently the Euro has been a more stable currency. I'm sorry sir but you are out of your depth in this discussion.
Man, there is indeed someone who is out of his depth in this conversation - you. The value of the dollar does indeed have a huge impact on oil prices. Let's walk through the basic steps that oil takes as it comes to market:

1) Oil-wealthy nation-states either sign agreements with oil companies (such as the former Seven Sisters) or form their own national oil companies (Gazprom, Saudi Aramco) to produce oil. This oil can be purchased from the nation by the producing companies at agreed-upon prices, and when the transaction takes place in US dollars, you can damn well guarantee that inflation is factored into the going rate so that Sheik Omar can afford to buy his 15th Bentley.

The volume of oil provided by the nation-states can easily be manipulated via production quotas in order to adjust the price, because oil demand is so inelastic.

In the case of oil transactions between oil companies and the US, the transaction often doesn't take place in cash, but instead in contributions to the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

2) The oil companies make the oil available to the market. Certain quantities are put up for sale for a given delivery window a few months in the future (thus forming a futures market).

3) Traders purchase this oil at whatever prices strikes their fancy and thus set the market price. If they think that oil demand in July of this year is going to be crazy, they'll be happy to put a large value on that barrel of oil. The oil which is sold over-the-counter (instead of through the markets) is sold at the spot price, which is set by a couple of organizations based upon the market price plus a small (sub-1%) markup. Note that the oil companies can't directly set the price, and thus it's more than a bit naive and immature to blame the oil companies for the price of oil - this isn't the same situation as slapping a price tag on a TV or car.

If indeed ExxonMobil is involved in some dramatic price-fixing conspiracy, they should be embarrassed by making only 10% margin on their nefarious activities
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 11:30 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by SSbaby
No, he didn't take action. He did not state in any way how he reduced his dependency on oil. He is still dependent on oil by driving a Civic. He is only attempting to reduce his fuel bill even though he is continuing to make the oil barons prosper. NEWSFLASH: A small vehicle does not stifle profits made by oil companies. Oil companies know that and they will compensate.
By using a smaller car, he is buying fuel less and therefore saving himself a lot of money. Now, of course his little "demand savings" doesn't register a blip on the world radar but he has actually done something to change his driving habits and therefore saved himself some money...rather than whining about how much he's paying while doing nothing. That's the point.

How do we reduce the "big bad oil companies" profits? We ALL make the same serious lifestyle changes. Are we ALL willing to do so, or are we ALL going to keep with the status quo and complain?
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 11:53 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Eric Bryant
If indeed ExxonMobil is involved in some dramatic price-fixing conspiracy, they should be embarrassed by making only 10% margin on their nefarious activities
Not only that Eric, I'd be doubly embarrassed if it took a corporation 100 years to figure out how to start "fleecing" the consumer.

The fundamental problem with gas prices is that our society has been conditioned to believe that cheap gas is a birth right and that vehicles should always be cheap to operate. We never really thought about the "what-if's" when it came to large, developing nations....though we should have.
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 02:21 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by SSbaby
That statement would not be correct as oil is sold in $USD. In fact, most international trade is done in $USD but recently the Euro has been a more stable currency. I'm sorry sir but you are out of your depth in this discussion.

The last time a country tried to sell oil in non-US currency, the US went to war with that country and apprehended their leader... http://www.feasta.org/documents/review2/nunan.htm
Read post 56 and thanks Eric.
Old Feb 3, 2008 | 02:28 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by s_willis
Dude, read the papers. It's been happening for the last couple years Remember GM? Delphi? Ford? Contract time??? Oh, yeah, then when they reach an agreement and the "uneducated blue collar worker" takes concessions, the top dogs give themselves a hefty bonus and an arm breaking pat on the back.
That is true, but those companies you listed were loosing money. Its just not fair that the top dogs still take home millions while a company goes under, but once again that is not the top dogs fault. The share holders have to approve their salaries.



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