I don't get much here anymore, which is apparent since I missed the whole Z06 blowup. But reading the fallout from it, I'm going to post the standards I have (for whatever it's worth), and go from there.

I've been doing the inside info thing for about 4 or 5 years as a side hobby, and the most paradoxial thing about doing this stuff is that the more info you have, the less you can post. This is because as you are told things in confidence, there tends to be more people who'll trust you to keep what they know off the internet or to themselves. Though I may know where alot of bones are buried, there are others on this site who are verifiable graveyards. Point is, there is alot of info certain people here have (and sometimes share) that never reaches this forum (or others). That's due to respecting an automaker's confidentiality.

Coming from me that may be seem odd on the surface, but it isn't. There are limits to what should be done in pursuing information on future vehicles. Here on the internet, we aren't bound by the same restrictions as car mags (which can and are manipulated regularly as to what they can write in their "inside information" section), but that doesn't mean everything is fair game either.

Everything has limits. To say that nothing should leave GM or any other automaker till it's good & ready, then come to a site like this is hypocritical. By the very nature of people coming here (sorry, even you outraged ones) means that you all want advance information on future cars, and there's nothing wrong with people getting you that information. There is a reason why everyone here didn't simply log on to GM, Ford, or DaimlerChrysler's website and look up the latest press releases. But, there are standards to this. The reason I say this 1st is that I want to put all this into perspective.


Studio pictures are company property and I don't support using it not only because it's probally illegal, but because it's theft. Naming sources, stealing company property or misusing it simply put IS WRONG!!! Sure, we all will look at any posted embargoed pictures in a heartbeat. It doesn't bother me when I have access to pictures and keep it to myself, only to see it posted by someone else before I'm allowed to share it. But GM is totally right in being more than annoyed at the new Z06 ending up on the internet. Honestly, I am too because it may mean in the future, I may not gain access (yes, I know that's pretty self centered of me).


The reason why GM is bent over the Z06 episode is NOT because it's styling is going to revolutionize the automotive world. It's because GM has a security leak just ahead of a massive product effort (GM has alot of cars in the pipeline over the next few years). Another reason is that once something is on the internet, it becomes public domain. GM looses control of it & the people who copy or link to the item can't be punished, even though the person responsible in the 1st place can. Also, it can never be completly retrieved.

Taking a picture of a early model on a public road by every standard imaginable is acceptable. Of course, some people would disagree, but once it's out in the public it's fair game as long as you don't lift the covers of a car or block the drivers in. If you see an undisguised future car on the streets, its either someone wants it seen, or someone is in big trouble. Either way, snap and post till your heart's content.


Another area that is completely fair game is information readily available in the press.

As you may know, I did research on the Ste. Therese plant, and it's issue with the Camaro name and posted a thread about it here. I used information gathered directly from news stories & press releases, some directly from GM itself!!!


Yet GM started an internal investigation, and some reps hinted that the article damaged chances of a Camaro, and because of this I yanked it. After thinking about it, and realizing how assinine the whole thing was, I rewrote the story and submitted it to a magazine I occasionally write for.

Yes, GM can go way overboard on this stuff to the point of blantant dumbness.




What's not fair game?

*NEVER, EVER name your sources. If he doesn't say anything, assume he DOESN'T want to be named.

*Dont post info without permission. If he gives you info, keep it to yourself unless he wants you to post it. Amazingly, this has happened to me quite a few times.

The exception is when info starts coming up from multiple sources or a source willing to give permission to post it. There are times when I had info and sat on it a year or more till it bubbled up elsewhere, then I confirmed it, posted it, or posted what I knew, taking care to leave out anything that might point to a source.


In the end, we are all here for future vehicle information. If we actually believed in waiting for GM to release information, we'd all simply log on to GM's website and read their press releases, so let's not kid ourselves or get indignant here. GM (as well as everyone else) uses sites like this and comunities like ours to creat buzz, test ideas, or simply a back door to show what's coming (I've personally seen some of this myself), so they shouldn't kid themselves or get indignant either.

But at the same time, we need a little common sense here. There are plenty of people on this very site (and 2 others) that have information that will blow your socks off, but use alot of common sense in handling it. And none would never ever post embargoed pictures, official fact sheets, or confidential vehicle specifications.

It's just not professional.

 

Thank you...

 

I personally think of it as comparable to a situation of slanderous speak against a public figure.

Whoever started the rumor may be held accountable if that person can be found, but to try and hold anyone in public who repeats the rumor accountable. Or in the case of web masters, that's like going to every bar around town and threatening bar owners who allow patrons to discuss the rumor.

In other words, somebody is to blame, but that's between GM and that person. Now GM is just making themselves look silly by getting pissed at everyone for pretending like they didn't see any pictures.

 

quality post...

so where have you been spending all your time lately??

 

Excellent post Guy. I agree 100%.

 

do you have or have you ever had or seen pictures of the 5th generation camaro Giounm?

 

I hear guionM loud and clear...listen up boys.

 

Me either - which is a little sad for me. I still come here a lot, but don't post much. The board seems to be losing "the edge" lately.

All true, and IMO this is exactly why they went after Paul. If you want to be real honest, they have probably been tracking his activity and rhetoric for some time now, and this incident alone is what sent them over the top on him. I'm saying I doubt this is his first "offense" of this nature... kinda like the judge never rapes you over your first speeding ticket - but that's MY guess.

Let's get one thing out in the open... GM definitely has cause to be upset. And IMO GM was definitely in the right to try to get the pictures removed IMO.
BUT, there are right ways and wrong ways to make your point. The brutal strong-arm is not always the best way, especially when dealing with the emotional populous to which you are trying to cater and sell your product. Making an "example" of someone in this case can be hazardous.
I could easily come up with 10 different ways GM could have approached this guy and worked WITH him behind the scenes and secretively to either 1)reveal the source, 2)control the damage, or 3)both.
So color me split on this case... I think there are some security issues that GM has every right to persue and react to, but I also think they were quick to throw muscle around without thinking about the ramifications (big companies do that alot - all of them).

guionM - excellent post. I am 100% in agreement, and practice the same ethics.

I will spill a little beans here (in some risk) but due to the nature of the conversation, I think it is a worthwhile risk, and minimal.
I work "inside" as many others do that come here. When you get to see your products developed to go in a "future" model - it's just cool. It also carries with it a huge responsibility. The company I work for not only supplies major components for every manufacturer in the US, but globally. Inside, outside, top, and bottom. We even work closely with manufacturers to develop new equipment and peices for cars as they are being designed, to reduce cost, weight, or improve manufacturability and/or performance. I often get to see peices or sections of a concept, but rarely get to see the whole thing together (which is intentional by the manufacturer. I do the same thing when I fabricate machines for our plants. We farm out sections of our equipment to several suppliers, then bring them all together in OUR plant for final assembly by our staff so nobody sees the entire machine but our own people).

So one of the reasons I hit sites like this is to see if I can get "the other parts" that I don't get to see. The engine developments, the drivelines, the instrumentation, the interior... I get eager to see the "whole picture" ASAP.
Now at this point, I want to reaffirm what guionM stated above with conviction. To even log onto this board, and then say that all pictures, images, and info on upcoming models should be guarded, protected, and not be available whatsoever, well that's as hypocritical as it gets. To those of you who say otherwise, I expect nothing less than your promise to immediately stop coming to sites like this, and replace your bookmarks for these sites with bookmarks for GM.com, Ford.com, and DCX.com .

To me, if a "new" car is shot outside, on a public road or in public domain, by a stander-by - then let's have it!, it's fair game. But if someone sneaks a shot out of a plant or R&D facility intentionally - find the guilty party and serve them with appropriate discipline.

I come here (and other places too) to learn - period. To learn of new cars early of course too, but I want to do that via respect and dignity, not theivery. I would never risk my job for the scarce gratification of a few internet acquaintances, moreover, I would not do something like that simply because it is ethically wrong. But after info has been verified by proper sources, or I am cleared to talk about it, I'll be the happy to "confirm" a rumor if I can (or choose to).
'Nuf said about all this espionage crap!

Let's start speculating on NAIAS 2005...
It's only 2 months away!
Maybe we can get this board back to some good ol' car-talk!

 

Just tell us all you know....yeah that's it.

Seriously though, I'm sure I'm seeing what the big deal is, completely. It seems what's important here is GM losing money and keeping competitors from knowing what's going on, and I understand that. So the new Z06 got posted before they wanted. People are gonna see it sooner or later and it satisfies enthusiasts. The only people that will know or know about these kinds of things are of little percentage, it will still be a surprise to 70% of the public or more when it's shown. Posting spy photos of cars in development might not be completely right, I guess I agree, but it sure does make things interesting and create excitment.

 

Excellent post Guy. Very well said. I couldnt have said it better myself, although later today I will try

 

So is our forum a bit screwed now?

 

Excelent post, unfortunatly I was out of town last week and missed almost everything, but caught the tail end of what happned.

The Z06 launch is so close that now I'd almost rather wait and get all the pics and info at once. The Camaro on the other hand I wouldn't mind seeing some leaks

 

I wholeheartedly agree with the thought that stealing is wrong, and that GM can and should take steps to stop leaks.

However, strong arm tactics are not neceassarily the best way to do that, IMHO.

Go to the internal source and VOILA ! your problem is solved.


However, in this case, there is still some mystery as to what really did occur - again, IMHO.


Now, about GM in general (no pun intended ! ) :

If there is indeed a 5th gen in the works, and IF indeed GM wants to prevent a rehash of the 60's w/ the Mustang being out there first, selling tons, and GM coming in after the fact to try to get a piece of the pie - then for God's sakes, tell us something !

Let's face it - if you got tired of waiting, and plunked down $'s for a GTO , or a Mustang , in '04 or '05 , are you really going to be in a position to throw down more dollars for a down payment on a '07 or '08 model after taking a hickey driving a new car off the lot ?

Or, perhaps you don't want to extend your car payments beyond '09 or '10 - which is where they will be for most of us that buy on a 5 year note ?

I don't think that is too much to ask.

It's been 2 years - and 3 model years - since the F's demise.

I have been a F fan since Smokey & the Bandit , but I swear here lately it seems that Ford has it on the ball, and GM just does not have a clue.

When there are implications that the General is cracking down on those of us that have an interest in their performance products, and are looking for more information on them, well that just rubs me the wrong way.

My .02.

Britt

 

Perhaps there's so much "leak anxiety" at GM because they already know that the products in the pipeline will be uncompetitive. I'd say that recent introductions point to the future mediocrity. The loathsome Malibu will hardly be competitive with the upcoming Hyundai Sonata. The G6 is 50hp short of the Altima V6, a car that's been around so long that it should have been an obvious benchmark. The Equinox is burdened with a weak Chinese V6 that's not even fit for a Saturn. Now we haze a horendously expensive Z06 headed our way. The Z06 looks like a way for GM to greedily soak up the money that would have gone to tuners like Callaway or Lingenfelter. It sounds like a brilliant recipe meant solely for wealthy gearheads and fat profit margins.


"Sometime that light at the end of the tunnel is a speeding locomotive."

 

To bad your not in that tunnel dear eyed at that light!