This document (sent to GM) states what we see as the obvious.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,808
From: FL/MI
Dog,
Im not going to play that game of naming names and itemizing people and who they are. And who and what they do or not do. You want to know who they are look at the face of GM's problems now. And how long has this been going on? Do I need to explain anything? No I do not.
Look, You like me I have been in this section for a very long time. You know this is nothing new and actually many here complained about this for a while now in many posts.
This all just came to a head now since the economy went belly up.
And yes has beens..obviously they got to thier positions for being something in the world. But has it done them any miracle work at GM? has it turned this boat around? Do we see a company that said no to the bailout money?
Nope. We see people in control of a company that have no idea how to operate it in the 21st century...like I said ...has beens..and this is not just me saying it its been on this board for a long time. Heck some people were calling for change a long time ago yet nothing has come along.
I am angry and upset as any fan of what they enjoy would be. Does that make my ideas or thoughts right? Nope, but I do have a voice on here to say hey do something about it.
GM has right now some of the best cars out there. Yet the buying public thinks GM cars are from the 80's still. And its going bye bye.
I personally do not care who is on the board at GM. But they are directing GM to that point they are at now. Has beens..
like I said dog, not venting at you just frustrated with the info we have known all along and were just a website for a Camaro. Yet somehow we know things better than the people that are supposed to get paid to do this for a living? Something is really wrong.
and case in point..like pontiac..why is the Impala held up now??
Im not going to play that game of naming names and itemizing people and who they are. And who and what they do or not do. You want to know who they are look at the face of GM's problems now. And how long has this been going on? Do I need to explain anything? No I do not.
Look, You like me I have been in this section for a very long time. You know this is nothing new and actually many here complained about this for a while now in many posts.
This all just came to a head now since the economy went belly up.
And yes has beens..obviously they got to thier positions for being something in the world. But has it done them any miracle work at GM? has it turned this boat around? Do we see a company that said no to the bailout money?
Nope. We see people in control of a company that have no idea how to operate it in the 21st century...like I said ...has beens..and this is not just me saying it its been on this board for a long time. Heck some people were calling for change a long time ago yet nothing has come along.
I am angry and upset as any fan of what they enjoy would be. Does that make my ideas or thoughts right? Nope, but I do have a voice on here to say hey do something about it.
GM has right now some of the best cars out there. Yet the buying public thinks GM cars are from the 80's still. And its going bye bye.
I personally do not care who is on the board at GM. But they are directing GM to that point they are at now. Has beens..
like I said dog, not venting at you just frustrated with the info we have known all along and were just a website for a Camaro. Yet somehow we know things better than the people that are supposed to get paid to do this for a living? Something is really wrong.
and case in point..like pontiac..why is the Impala held up now??
I have passion for GM as well. Deep and wide passion.
I also have some experience in dealing with angry people.
Angry folks tend to lash out and that's fine.
I have been actively involved with GM for about the last decade. I have been a fan and buyer of the vehicles made by GM for far longer than that.
Everyones opinion, including mine, is just that. An opinion that springs from whatever motivations and experiences.
My opinion is that there is a "whatever pound" "gorilla" in the room.
It's the economy. Tight money, and folks nervous about spending it. The economy, and loans being more difficult to get.
I'm not of the opinion that GM has no present or rapidly coming products that will appeal. I'm fully aware that some folk's favorite oxen will get gored or put off due to tight funds, unclarified regulations, and unstabilized fuel prices.
We agree on being upset that GM is in financial straits. We don't agree that it's the BOD or Wagoner.
IMO, it's legacy costs and unsustainable entitlements that have increasingly made things tougher and tougher for GM. In vehicles that have the smallest of margins for profit the players with the smallest overhead have the largest advantage. This is what the import's gaining advantage is based on.
The early cars that came here from Japan were junk. They got their act together becuse their labor costs were low, and they remain low. The Japanese are facing issues because the Koreans are in the game due to their seeing labor costs and overhead costs being an advantage they have over the Japanese.
I find little from Asia that is at all interesting to me as a car enthusiast. It isn't because it's imported because there are cars from europe I find quite worthy of interest. There are cars from europe I consider to be highly over priced and underwhelming under the skin. Some are just outright junk.
I am distressed that the kind of work people can perform and be a part of a middle class is not sustainable when governments and consumers choose to believe that dealing on an equal footing with the third world or part of the world where labor, healthcare, environmental regulation, and governmental manipulation of money values is fair game for manipulation.
GM has to be a size and have labor and legacy costs at a level it can be profitable.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 162
From: St. Louis, MO
I imagine GM much like my time working for AG Edwards.
At AGE in a dept of ~30 people there were 5 managers
Five managers all sitting in the same room with 25 worker bees.
Talk about bloated waste of resources. I imagine GM is the same way.
AG Edwards also spent money without regard. There were no budgets. It was always assumed there would be more money.
Everything was so inefficient due to the amount of 'managers' and also thanks to sarbanes-oxley the government had created the biggest pile of polictical BS imaginable. Forms had to be filled out in triplicate just to get a password reset. Needless to say it was impossible to actually follow these procedures. Usually the action would be done and the forms backdated after the fact just to 'comply'
I imagine GM also suffers from similiar legal requirements whether they be CAFE or crash tests or color of the tail lights in different countries.
AGEdwards overpaid. What I made was absurd. GM does the same.
As we know AGEdwards got bought out by wachovia which then went to the government for a bail out.
Again much like GM.
There is only 1 way GM could be fixed fast. You can't have a board, you can't have meetings where everyone's opinion and feelings matter and we all have to agree before something is done.
You have to have a dictatoship, you have to have one person who while they can listen to opinons has absolute authority to do ANY changes they want. Fire anyone they want etc. Produce any product they want, etc.
And god help you it has to be the right person motivated for the good of the company.
A monarchy like this will of course never happen instead we'll make tiny changes to the bureaucracy. They might help 20% and considering the crap pile there now it will be a 'relief' but it won't really trim the fat.
There are people there who shouldn't be, they know it, but they know how to play the game, work the system and continue to self-preserve at the expense of the company. You will never get rid of these people by adding more or different CEO's, overseers, car czars etc. These people thrive on being able to fly under the radar and the more level of crap you add the easier they can do this.
There is ZERO hope GM will ever become the lean efficient company they should be. All that will happen is they get a 'reset' as a slighty more efficient company and the process resumes until ## years from now you have the same problem again.
At AGE in a dept of ~30 people there were 5 managers
Five managers all sitting in the same room with 25 worker bees.
Talk about bloated waste of resources. I imagine GM is the same way.
AG Edwards also spent money without regard. There were no budgets. It was always assumed there would be more money.
Everything was so inefficient due to the amount of 'managers' and also thanks to sarbanes-oxley the government had created the biggest pile of polictical BS imaginable. Forms had to be filled out in triplicate just to get a password reset. Needless to say it was impossible to actually follow these procedures. Usually the action would be done and the forms backdated after the fact just to 'comply'
I imagine GM also suffers from similiar legal requirements whether they be CAFE or crash tests or color of the tail lights in different countries.
AGEdwards overpaid. What I made was absurd. GM does the same.
As we know AGEdwards got bought out by wachovia which then went to the government for a bail out.
Again much like GM.
There is only 1 way GM could be fixed fast. You can't have a board, you can't have meetings where everyone's opinion and feelings matter and we all have to agree before something is done.
You have to have a dictatoship, you have to have one person who while they can listen to opinons has absolute authority to do ANY changes they want. Fire anyone they want etc. Produce any product they want, etc.
And god help you it has to be the right person motivated for the good of the company.
A monarchy like this will of course never happen instead we'll make tiny changes to the bureaucracy. They might help 20% and considering the crap pile there now it will be a 'relief' but it won't really trim the fat.
There are people there who shouldn't be, they know it, but they know how to play the game, work the system and continue to self-preserve at the expense of the company. You will never get rid of these people by adding more or different CEO's, overseers, car czars etc. These people thrive on being able to fly under the radar and the more level of crap you add the easier they can do this.
There is ZERO hope GM will ever become the lean efficient company they should be. All that will happen is they get a 'reset' as a slighty more efficient company and the process resumes until ## years from now you have the same problem again.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
I appreciate your passion for GM.
I have passion for GM as well. Deep and wide passion.
I also have some experience in dealing with angry people.
Angry folks tend to lash out and that's fine.
I have been actively involved with GM for about the last decade. I have been a fan and buyer of the vehicles made by GM for far longer than that.
Everyones opinion, including mine, is just that. An opinion that springs from whatever motivations and experiences.
My opinion is that there is a "whatever pound" "gorilla" in the room.
It's the economy. Tight money, and folks nervous about spending it. The economy, and loans being more difficult to get.
I'm not of the opinion that GM has no present or rapidly coming products that will appeal. I'm fully aware that some folk's favorite oxen will get gored or put off due to tight funds, unclarified regulations, and unstabilized fuel prices.
We agree on being upset that GM is in financial straits. We don't agree that it's the BOD or Wagoner.
IMO, it's legacy costs and unsustainable entitlements that have increasingly made things tougher and tougher for GM. In vehicles that have the smallest of margins for profit the players with the smallest overhead have the largest advantage. This is what the import's gaining advantage is based on.
The early cars that came here from Japan were junk. They got their act together becuse their labor costs were low, and they remain low. The Japanese are facing issues because the Koreans are in the game due to their seeing labor costs and overhead costs being an advantage they have over the Japanese.
I find little from Asia that is at all interesting to me as a car enthusiast. It isn't because it's imported because there are cars from europe I find quite worthy of interest. There are cars from europe I consider to be highly over priced and underwhelming under the skin. Some are just outright junk.
I am distressed that the kind of work people can perform and be a part of a middle class is not sustainable when governments and consumers choose to believe that dealing on an equal footing with the third world or part of the world where labor, healthcare, environmental regulation, and governmental manipulation of money values is fair game for manipulation.
GM has to be a size and have labor and legacy costs at a level it can be profitable.
I have passion for GM as well. Deep and wide passion.
I also have some experience in dealing with angry people.
Angry folks tend to lash out and that's fine.
I have been actively involved with GM for about the last decade. I have been a fan and buyer of the vehicles made by GM for far longer than that.
Everyones opinion, including mine, is just that. An opinion that springs from whatever motivations and experiences.
My opinion is that there is a "whatever pound" "gorilla" in the room.
It's the economy. Tight money, and folks nervous about spending it. The economy, and loans being more difficult to get.
I'm not of the opinion that GM has no present or rapidly coming products that will appeal. I'm fully aware that some folk's favorite oxen will get gored or put off due to tight funds, unclarified regulations, and unstabilized fuel prices.
We agree on being upset that GM is in financial straits. We don't agree that it's the BOD or Wagoner.
IMO, it's legacy costs and unsustainable entitlements that have increasingly made things tougher and tougher for GM. In vehicles that have the smallest of margins for profit the players with the smallest overhead have the largest advantage. This is what the import's gaining advantage is based on.
The early cars that came here from Japan were junk. They got their act together becuse their labor costs were low, and they remain low. The Japanese are facing issues because the Koreans are in the game due to their seeing labor costs and overhead costs being an advantage they have over the Japanese.
I find little from Asia that is at all interesting to me as a car enthusiast. It isn't because it's imported because there are cars from europe I find quite worthy of interest. There are cars from europe I consider to be highly over priced and underwhelming under the skin. Some are just outright junk.
I am distressed that the kind of work people can perform and be a part of a middle class is not sustainable when governments and consumers choose to believe that dealing on an equal footing with the third world or part of the world where labor, healthcare, environmental regulation, and governmental manipulation of money values is fair game for manipulation.
GM has to be a size and have labor and legacy costs at a level it can be profitable.
Like I said im not venting at any of you. I think you get that. Were all on the sidelines as this plays out. Maybe you more than me are in the game for more at stake. But we all are fans and are passionate about GM. We just dissagree on who is the most at fault. Do like you mentioned legacy cost, do they hurt or the cause of this? Sure. What I am wondering is the after effects. Who is the ones that are saying kill Saturn, reduce Pontiac and keep buick. Sell Hummer and so on. Is it not the board who say yes to this stuff? And if so then the product why delay product that might help an image that is hurting right now? Like the Imapala.
I know its been asked so many times but no real response. Maybe you can shed some light. Why keep buick??? And shrink Pontiac? I know China but why? Why not keep your strongest brands? Unless the "performance" of Pontiac will be delivered in Buick. I just do not see it. Those are the thoughts I am concerned about and who is making these choices?
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