I think Threxx was slamming them because from the article, it makes it seem that GM was now using a worse platform just to save money which in turn would give out a worse product. If that was the case, then I'd be right there with him slamming them too because they have no room for error to be doing stuff like that. However according to Brandon, thats not the case.

 

Everything you've said sounds very good, thanks for the info.

However, I will hate the Velite if it is just another FWD G6 convertible. Hate it. And then there is absolutely no reason for it. When will GM get it through thier head that it goes down to minute differences like steering precision, platform solidarity, engine variability, etc that make up a character of a car. If they want to imbue the same character of the "Solara-competitor" G6 into a fantastic looking Buick rebirth enhancing Velite, then I am completely against it. Buick needs to be different. In fact, all the brands need to have a set of core values, and that includes engine and platform choice, interior and exterior design and coloration, material choice, to DEFINE who exactly they are trying to be AND why they should even exist. Saturn needs a FWD competitor, let them cater to the masses. Buicks should be sweet long and lovely, romantic, dark, and expression of adult coolness. A great target would be the Buick's of the '40's and '50's with thier tremendous presence and sweeping elegant lines. Velite on FWD just won't do it for me. Not enough premium a whole lotta cost saving to me [on that issue alone, but I favor going with the inexpensive RWD chassis for velite and for all other cars that could use it]....

 

The basic issue is...

GM-NA originally planned for Zeta to be a series of mix lux and up cars with not really a ton of volume (GTO, Velite, Chevelle, G8, and Roadmaster were not intended to sell as much as say a Grand Prix or Crown Vic). Using this mandate, GM NA gave Holden, who was already far along on the VE, a bunch of different requirements to add to the VE. Those requirements added the expensive/heavy IRS everyone debates, and a bunch of other stuff that is needed to sell a car in America, but not elsewhere in the world. Either way, in the end, the VE Zeta came to be "hundreds" of pounds heavier than initially intended..and since weight also adds cost...it cost more than originally intended (more than hundred of dollars also).

Around the time this was realized, GM decided to prioritize, and that it needed volume RWD cars....not the niche cars VE based cars. Chevy has been working on a cheap sigma since the late 90's pretty much under the GM corprate radar. The Sigma based VE makes much more sense because it uses manufacturing processes similar to GM-NA, it is highly flexible, and is lighter. Also, now that the platform has been used a few years, the costs have been amoralized. When someone says GM used the "cheaper" platform...do not assoiate that with inferior. The Sigma based Zeta just has alot of Sigma's luxury fluff taken out so that a Chevy price point can be offered. This is what will allow GM to get the volume Camaro, and Caprice/Bel Air/whatever to market at a price point that Camaro buyer's and police/fleet buyers can afford. That was not possible with VE-Zeta cars..without spending a lot of money reverse engineering it.

That being said...the Sigma based Zeta...is still a Sigma at heart...so anything in the Sigma parts bin can be added to make it a competent performer at any price level.

Again in closing....cheaper does not have to equal inferior! It just means that the platform can accomodate cars that sell at lower price points and make a profit...something VE can not do when you cnosider the cost in the platform and how much it would cost to make it here.

 

I wonder if someone has looked at making the Velite a sister car to the Camaro. Make it longer, and have it start at $35K plus...and it will not cannibalize the Camaro.

 

Exactamundo.

And is it possible......??????

............cheaper.......and.......better?

Could be.

 

Or how about a Velite that started at around 26k with a 3.2L engine with ~230HP that rode like a bigger car [i.e. more isolation, plenty of solidarity still there, but less handling capacity thanks to more insulation, heavier parts, etc.] is longer and was packed with Buick luxury features. That last point is a good one, Buick's should come fairly loaded, but I'm not asking GM to go crazy here. I mean standard safety all around, standard leather with the option for a very nice material suede, maybe standard heated seats, and that would be enough to give even lowly Buicks a luxury aura that is NECESSARY if BUICK ever plans to compete on the level history dictates it should be, with competitors like Volvo, Acura, VW, Audi even in some cases...

I don't see a bigger riding car ever canabalizing Camaro sales, and the target market would be 40-somethings to boomers who are loking for a relaxing, stylish second car.

The only car I could see this taking sales from would be the CTS convertible [if they ever make it, doubt it, but I really want it]. I know, I know, it seems like a lot of verts, but Buick and Cadillac NEED these image cars. When these image cars are complemented by fantastic mainstream cars, Buick and Cadillac will begin to conquer sales from MB, BMW, LExus, Audi, Acura, etc....

America will become more socially conscious of what is American. There are changes and impacts coming that will make Americans band together, I believe. Americans of the future will become more interested in everything American and sticking together. Buick, Cadillac, and even Pontiac could still have a very triumphant future, they just need the right combinations of product.

 

Velite's mission should be about equal to that of the Sebring Convertible. A relatively useful, stylish convertible for the somewhat affluent.

 

Right. And would 26k be asking too much from that crowd for a beautifully styled, luxurious, powerful, and quiet Buick? RWd it needs to be, in order to reverse the image Buick and GM have. FWD with the right style will accomplish something, but it won't elevate Buick as much as a RWD performance coupe and vert, with the possibility for V8s and maybe even TT V6s later on could.

 

Quickest way to get a Velite to market is to piggyback an existing platform and re skin it and throw in a new interior right? Why base the buick on the G6 SAAB as a 9-3 Vert with a power soft top and I know the 3.6 HF would fit in the engine bay since the 2.8 HF turbo does. Use the 3.6 HF with the 6 speed stick or the SAAB 5 speed auto with tap shift. New front redone tail lights and a new dash and BAM Velite. Might chop something up in a minute to show what I mean.

Rough chops

Front
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...teSaabchop.jpg
Rear
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...ite9-3rear.jpg

 

are you KIDDING me?

there has never been a subject in the history of this site where EVERYONE agreed on anything.

 

Exactly!

Guys, GM is a business. If in the final analysis, GM concludes it's going to be cheaper to go with plan "B" instead of plan "A", there's nothing wrong with this at all.

We are talking about a company that does intensive studies on radio & HVAC ***** feel. I'm sure they studied the living daylights out of this "Zeta" rear driver. Before we start slaming GM for taking the cheap way out, lets see what they got.

BTW: Mustang is the right size for a pony car, like it or not.

A few of you may disagree, but there's 180,000 plus people over the past 13 months that disagree with you. That's more than all other small sports coupes combined.

Market says you're wrong.

Give up.

Move on.

 

2005 Mustang GT:
Wheelbase: 107.1 in
Track, front/rear: 62.3/62.5 in
Length: 188in
Width: 73.9in
Height: 55.4in
Curb weight: 3523 lb

2005 CTS:
Wheelbase: 113.4in
Track F/R: 60.3/60.0in
Length: 190.1in
Width: 70.6in
Height: 56.7in
Manual 3,509 lbs. / Automatic 3,568 lbs

1969 Mustang:
Wheelbase: 108in
Track f/r: 58.5/58.5in
Length: 187.4in
Width: 71.8in
Height: 50.3in
Weight: 2980-3910lb

1969 Camaro
Wheelbase: 108.10in
Track F/R: 59/58.9in
Length: 184.60in
Width: 72.50in
Height: 51.00in
Weight 3090 lbs

I wouldn't say the Mustang is too big, and I think the Sigma-Zeta would be a good start for the Camaro (I am sure it will be a bit shorter in length than the CTS though ). The track width is right where it needs to be, the wheelbase will be determined by the unibody, the height will be determined by the body, and the width (while it will be determined by both the track width and the body) is good right where it is.

I, just like many people on this board, want a 5th Gen Camaro and I really want it to rock. People (with more knowledge of the matter than I have) already have said that "something" coming to the NAIAS will rock Camaro enthusiasts, and that is good enough for me. These people are Camaro enthusiasts too, and they want "it" to ROCK just as much (probably more) than we do, not only from a performance point of view but also from business stand point. Right now it seems like there are so many people jumping to conclusions and getting excited or worried about everything they hear, without listening to what is being said or waiting to see what these enthusiasts have been working on. NAIAS is only like three months away, show up, and see what they have up their sleeve. THEN by all means let everybody and their mother know what you like and don't like. If/when "it" gets produced, if you like it, BUY ONE (or two ). Sorry for the rant.

David

 

I can't wait until January... I want to see another kick-*** GM vehicle... just to change people's mindset about company's outlook from the current doom and gloom. I hope that car will be in production within 12 months from the NAIAS but I know I'd be asking for too much.

I have faith in Red's comments and judging from other enthusiast's postings I've read recently... that the 'Camaro' will be more than just a Mustang rival.

 

It would be nice for Epsilon to be much more flexable. I always wished that they could build a true mid sized car off it. Smaller then Impala and GP, but larger then Malibu. Long wheel base and short overhangs.

Anyway, an upper class Camaro could be a GTO as well.

 

The insiders are saying that the next generation Impala will probably be a long wheelbase Epsilon II. I would think that the LaCrosse would also use this platform, while the Grand Prix (which hopefully will not be renamed G8) would use Sigma-lite/Zeta.