If GM really really wants the Commodore line, or any other rebadged Holdens for that matter, in the US, though, what stops them from branding them a Chevy or a Buick?

 

Exactly. And that leads to the point made earlier about Chevrolet being better able to do Pontiac-esque cars than Buick cars.

Commodore would be right at home as a Chevy Impala. If Buick were cut and Chevy picked up that product, how do you market LaCrosse? A more expensive and polished Malibu?

I loved Pontiac too. But Chevrolet and Buick are far easier to differentiate in today's market than Chevrolet and Pontiac. That's just the way it is.

 

"...GM looses 4?"


It would actually be "loses 4?" Sorry to be a spelling-****, Formula79, but it drives me absolutely bat-**** insane when I see people spell "lose" like "loose"....

 

Good point.

 

Loose is the opposite of tight.

Lose is the opposite of win.

Please do not confuse these two terms.

 

Did you forget Jeep, or are they now under RAM?

 

Assuming you're asking me -- I forgot Jeep.

 

I'm still finding it surprising how much mis-information goes on around here with respect to Chrysler. Yes, I KNOW this is a GM board. And yes, I KNOW kicking sand in Chrysler's face is sometimes:

A) Appropriate
B) Makes GM fans feel better about themselves because at least SOMEONE is worse off than GM

Anywho, to set some things straight...

1) RAM was NOT spun off to make it easier to sell. Why intelligent people continue to say this irks the crap out of me. Ram is the beginning of a unique brand in order to have a seperate division through which to sell light and MEDIUM DUTY TRUCKS. Kind of like how GMC is/was/whatever it is now. Iveco is extremely popular in Europe's medium duty truck market. I can see them co-developing new models with Chrysler for sale under the RAM BRAND...that is the theory from Chrysler right now, anyway.

2) Fiat and Alfa will NEVER have anywhere near the dealer body the traditional CDJ stores have right now. I got the paperwork on how we can become a Fiat store. We ain't doing it. There is no way in hell, in this economy, we are going to build a seperate showroom and have seperate staff to sell Fiat 500s and whatever the hell else they ship over with a Fiat label. Most other dealers won't either. Roughly TEN PERCENT of CDJ dealers will be awarded a Fiat franchise...that's about 200, gentlemen. Meanwhile, Alfa, which is much further from being launched here, will ONLY sell in major metro markets...kinda like Jaguar. What's my point? Splitting of divisions was NOT done to make it easier to simply hawk Fiats and Alfas over here if Chrysler dies!!!

3) Most of the Fiat product sold in the US will be badged as, guess what??? A DODGE. Anything Avenger-sized and smaller in Dodges lineup will be co-developed with Fiat. Anything Charger-sized and larger, or SUV based, will obviously be Chrysler developed. Period. That's fact. Dodge wanted to shed the truck image to simply SELL MORE CARS...TO BE KNOWN FOR CARS. Obviously, the product has to be there...but seperating it from truck products will help a little.

4) Marchionne has said numerous times that Fiat needs Chrysler and vice versa. Marchionne will not hit his volume targets without Chrysler. Chrysler has stopped hemmoraging cash, has product R&D in overdrive, and is ready to launch 3 more new vehicles before December (Charger/300 & Durango replacement). 2012 will see all new mid and compact cars.

All these stupid break-up and doom and gloom scenarios being played out on here do nothing more than continue to spread mis-information. I don't mean to be a PITA, but it gets irritating to see the same stuff get regurgitated up that isn't accurate.

Peace.

 

Jason E, I totally understand your anger over the speculation, particularly because you make a living selling Chrysler products. I think most people hope your statement of the plans are correct and come to fruition, but there is a healthy amount of skepticism. Just understand that people are suspicious of any move Fiat/Chrysler make now because of what ended up happening under Diamler and Cerberus ownership. It's only natural that people will wonder if Fiat will continue the watering down/ chopping up/bleeding of Chrysler. In time, if Chrysler truly invests in good products and grows, people will recognize it.

 

Jason, your posts on this subject are always encouraging to me.

 

That was exactly why I was questioning the wisdom of bringing Fiat here in that manner in another thread. I figured they'd want to take advantage of the established Chrysler dealer network. They're hamstringing themselves right out of the gate, it would seem.

Your other insights are encouraging (though I'm not totally sold on the separate RAM branding either).

 

It is more likely Ram was spun off to make it easier to get rid of Dodge anyway.

 

The last thing I want to do is come off on here like a know-it-all, or that I have my thumb up my a**. I know Chrysler had a failed start with Cerberus. I think it became painfully obvious FAST what Cerberus was up to. They had no interest in owning Chrysler. They wanted to simply grab Chrysler Financial...and it almost worked.

I went to the big hoopla event Cerberus held when it bought Chrysler in August '07 in Vegas. They wined us, dined us, and fed us pure crap. I truly believe Jim Press believed in what he was doing...that he was helping to rebuild an American icon. Here was a man with passion in his voice, liveliness to his step, and was ready to go.

The problem was, there was no R&D budget behind him. I remember looking at a pre-production Ram, in complete awe. There was a standing ovation at the debut. Then I remember thinking, where's the beef? Where's the rest of it? What about our recently-debuted, poorly received CARS? You know, the heart of the market?

There was great talk about "reviving a legend," "working with our dealer body," "coming out with inspirational new products," blah blah blah...notice the lack of actuak SUBSTANCE in all these statements.

Believe me...there is no group more skeptical at this point than the Chrysler dealer body. We've gone from being the sales end of the most profitable car company in the world a mere 12 years ago, to the has-beens of the industry. We have every reason to believe never-ending peril is around the corner. But, I see a difference in the way Fiat is handling things. Actual designers within the company are in overdrive to revamp current models, and bring new ones to market as soon as possible. Chrysler is working on everything from an all-new 8 speed automatic to adapting C and D segment platforms from Fiat for its own use. Its readying the Windsor plant to produce an Alfa variant of LX for EXPORT. Imagine that...

There is a difference. I've said all along, if Chrysler can survive 2010, it can move forward. Its actually earning money...albeit in a tiny amount. Its scrimping every penny it can, advertising only where necessary, and waiting until products actually show up to flaunt them as much as possible. This is very, very different from the "Dr. Z Days"...

I know the proof is in the product...it'd just be nice if people could acknowledge the fact that more than meets the eye is actually taking place as I type this. I've sold American cars, and only American cars, for 10 years now. It gets more than a little discouraging to see fellow Americans rant on, bash on and count out men and women that are fighting to survive during the worst downturn most of us have seen in our lifetime. Its become so commonplace to bash American cars, yet we all sit around and whine while our jobs dry up and we can't make ends meet.

If I'm getting a little soap-boxy here, forgive me. But its about damn time we all start dealing in facts, and not pop culture. I firmly believe Chrysler, which is STILL an American company despite what the interweb tells me (Fiat owns 20%...big deal), can come through again for the third time since I've been alive. The signs are all there...signs with substance.

Now I just need some Americans to have an open mind, and give them a chance.

 

Pontiac was not selling cars outside of fleet.

Saab was useless. Just look at it's sales numbers in GM's sales archives.

Saturn was becoming redundant and equally useless. It's models were available in other brands, and it's sales figures sucked.

Hummer had a stigma that it couldn't shake. Although it's sales tanked just like Jeeps, Jeep rebounded. Hummer couldn't.


I don't know where you got the logic in saying that Chrysler "Added" 3 brands.

1. Fiat already had Alfa as part of Fiat.

2. Chrysler already had Ram as part of the Dodge division.

3. Chrysler became part of Fiat.

4. Ram was separated from Dodge.

There isn't a single brand that Chrysler "added".

Chrysler didn't "buy" Fiat, therefore Chrysler didn't "add" Fiat or Alfa to it's brands.


Going back to GM, it takes mare money to market more brands. If you're going to spend money to develop and market multiple brands then those brands need to make financisl sense because you're burning up money that can be used in better ways.

This whole thing is a dead horse.

The General Motors Corperation was run into the ground due to mismanagement and the fact that it's size and divisions did not reflect it's 20% market share.

The current slimmer and far and away better run (thanks to your hated government intervention) General Motors Company is doing far better, making money, getting cars out that people want with better quality.

Chrysler is getting small cars on the cheap and Fiat is getting American made RWd chassis for their new Mercedes competing Alfas in Europe.

Things are looking good for our US auto industry.

Be happy, and enjoy.

 

okay, first of all I'm pretty sure that Fiat has no control over Ferrari and Maserati. Secondly, Daewoo doesn't exist anymore as of this year. And thirdly GM has 2 additional Chinese brands not included here; Wuling and their new entry level brand.

As for the number of brands, I completely see what you're saying. GM C
couldve and shouldve kept it's divisions, but aparently they're too dumb to figure out how to sell to the WHOLE market instead of just the 70% that Japan Inc sells to. Best of luck to them...