View Poll Results: Who should be the overall performance leader, Chevrolet or Pontiac??
Chevrolet
46
50.55%
Pontiac
45
49.45%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll
Chevrolet vs. Pontiac: Who should have the faster cars overall??
11-17-2003, 09:35 AM
#31
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Originally posted by Z284ever
OK, I'm back.
The Bonneville got the 403 because it was the larger C-body, as was the Olds 98 and the Buick Electra. The Impala/Caprice was the smaller B-body. The Catalina was Pontiac's B-body and it's largest engine was a 5.7L.
The Hurst/Olds that you mention was a '79. It came with the "R" code 350 found in the larger 88 and 98. It was rated at 170 hp. Strange that Olds wouldn't use the larger 403 in it's limited production halo car....but for some reason they stuck with the 350. Stock, they'd do 16's. Laughable today....but respectable back then. My best friend got one as a high school graduation present, ($9K back then, is probably equivalent to getting a $35K+ WS6 T/A today....nice present). We spent alot of summer nights cruising the W-30.
It was a very neat car, with special two tone paint and trim and a very cool Hurst Dualgate to play with. A 4 speed Z/28 however, would blow it's doors off....a T/A 6.6, would absolutely eat it for lunch.
The early 2nd gen RamAir T/A's were very fast and stylish cars....but a properly driven and geared LT-1 Z/28 could run with them. A '73 SD 455 would usually run mid to high 13's in the road tests of the time....but as we all know now....every Pontiac press car of that era was a massaged "ringer". I wonder if the ones consumers got could actually break into the 13's ..... stock?
True, in the late '70s, T/A had it all over the Z/28, especially the '79 T/A 6.6....but those days pretty much ended after 1979.....1989 turbo T/A notwithstanding.
At any rate.....I can handle the G6 being more performance oriented than the Malibu SS and even the Comp G being faster than Impala SS. I can also accept the GTO as an ultra performance Pontiac halo car....but the top Camaro must perform at least as well or better.
OK, I'm back.
The Bonneville got the 403 because it was the larger C-body, as was the Olds 98 and the Buick Electra. The Impala/Caprice was the smaller B-body. The Catalina was Pontiac's B-body and it's largest engine was a 5.7L.
The Hurst/Olds that you mention was a '79. It came with the "R" code 350 found in the larger 88 and 98. It was rated at 170 hp. Strange that Olds wouldn't use the larger 403 in it's limited production halo car....but for some reason they stuck with the 350. Stock, they'd do 16's. Laughable today....but respectable back then. My best friend got one as a high school graduation present, ($9K back then, is probably equivalent to getting a $35K+ WS6 T/A today....nice present). We spent alot of summer nights cruising the W-30.
It was a very neat car, with special two tone paint and trim and a very cool Hurst Dualgate to play with. A 4 speed Z/28 however, would blow it's doors off....a T/A 6.6, would absolutely eat it for lunch.
The early 2nd gen RamAir T/A's were very fast and stylish cars....but a properly driven and geared LT-1 Z/28 could run with them. A '73 SD 455 would usually run mid to high 13's in the road tests of the time....but as we all know now....every Pontiac press car of that era was a massaged "ringer". I wonder if the ones consumers got could actually break into the 13's ..... stock?
True, in the late '70s, T/A had it all over the Z/28, especially the '79 T/A 6.6....but those days pretty much ended after 1979.....1989 turbo T/A notwithstanding.
At any rate.....I can handle the G6 being more performance oriented than the Malibu SS and even the Comp G being faster than Impala SS. I can also accept the GTO as an ultra performance Pontiac halo car....but the top Camaro must perform at least as well or better.
In both the 403 Catalina and the Hurst Olds, I wasn't entirely correct. Catalina had the 403 only in police cruisers (Pontiac was still in the business back then). Hurst Olds 403 was only a rumor based in the fact that Olds had the 403 & THM350 certified in the Cutlass. Speculation (read: rumor) had that Old's built "super Hursts" Cutlass', but I haven't found any proof of that, so till I do, it didn't happen. You got it right on both counts.
As for Pontiac's "ringer" cars, those days were over before the 1960s were out. One of the car mags (I believe it was Motor Trend.... they were actually a great mag back then) discovered that one of the cars Pontiac gave them to test didn't have 1968's new emissions equptment, and had a cam from another engine (don't remember if it was a racing cam or a different year or sized engine), and refused to test their car in a comparison test. That started a move towards picking a car off the assembly line for testing by all the car magazines, that continue to today. They will "Preview Test" cars, but it's been followed up with production cars.
Figures you see published for the HO & SD455s are accurate, and from begining till the end of the 1970s Trans Ams had it over the Camaro (there was a preview test in April 1977 between the TA & the new Z28 where the Z was quicker, but later tests of the production Z put it behind the TA in the real world in acceleration & top speed).
Just the same, Pontiac tests cars prior to 1968 (including the nortorious 3.9second 0-60 Bonneville, and the GTO vs GTO Ferrari test) are for the most part, not to be believed. Many were run with dealer installed options, and weren't "showroom" cars.
BTW: The Turbo Trans Am came out in 1980. T/A 6.6 was still the top engine in 1979. Not many (they were '79 engines that were leftover, therefore very collectable). There were just over 5,000 made of 116,000 TAs.
1979 Trans Am Info & production specs:
http://www.iwaynet.net/~gl&lisk/1979ta.html
Last edited by guionM; 11-17-2003 at 09:38 AM.
11-17-2003, 09:48 AM
#32
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
Originally posted by guionM
BTW: The Turbo Trans Am came out in 1980. T/A 6.6 was still the top engine in 1979. Not many (they were '79 engines that were leftover, therefore very collectable). There were just over 5,000 made of 116,000 TAs.
1979 Trans Am Info & production specs:
http://www.iwaynet.net/~gl&lisk/1979ta.html
BTW: The Turbo Trans Am came out in 1980. T/A 6.6 was still the top engine in 1979. Not many (they were '79 engines that were leftover, therefore very collectable). There were just over 5,000 made of 116,000 TAs.
1979 Trans Am Info & production specs:
http://www.iwaynet.net/~gl&lisk/1979ta.html
BTW...I remember reading an account...many years ago... from an 455 SD Trans Am owner. This guy was the second or third owner of this '73 455 SD. He later found out that his car was originally used by Pontiac's press fleet and the previous owner denied ever turnig a wrench on it. He also had a friend who purchased an identical 455 SD, new, through the normal dealer channels.
He always noticed that his car was always about a half a second quicker than his friends' in the quarter mile...eventhough they were identically equipped.
When it came time for an engine tear down, he found that his former press car had ported and polished heads, thinner head gaskets (to increase compression), and some other stuff that I can't remember.
Last edited by Z284ever; 11-17-2003 at 12:52 PM.
11-17-2003, 10:26 AM
#33
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,463
Chevy has had the fastest cars in GM. Why because they are the cheapest and easiest to modify. Not to mention the Vette being the flagship for all of GM.
Sure Oldmosbile, Pontiac, and even Buck had some very fast and cool cars over the years its Chevy who'se had the fastest the most. Remember the SBC isn't the best small block motor out there but it plentiful and easy to mod and cheap.
If you people don't believe this take a trip to the local track and see what wins and why.
If ya want to go model by model then you may find Chevy isn't always the fastest but they are always near the top.
Sure Oldmosbile, Pontiac, and even Buck had some very fast and cool cars over the years its Chevy who'se had the fastest the most. Remember the SBC isn't the best small block motor out there but it plentiful and easy to mod and cheap.
If you people don't believe this take a trip to the local track and see what wins and why.
If ya want to go model by model then you may find Chevy isn't always the fastest but they are always near the top.
11-18-2003, 05:44 PM
#34
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: At car shows and cruise nights!
Posts: 3,647
I think no matter what Chevrolet is always gonna be seen as the GM performance division. They have way too much history and popularity assoiciated with performance not to be.
"Pontiac might have made the 1st musclecar, but Chevrolet perfected it." - An enthusiast at a cruise night.
"Pontiac might have made the 1st musclecar, but Chevrolet perfected it." - An enthusiast at a cruise night.
Last edited by IZ28; 11-18-2003 at 05:46 PM.
11-20-2003, 08:32 PM
#37
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
Originally posted by 30thZ286speed
If Pontiac is suppose to be the GM division that competes or has a image like BMW, a good start would be to offer manual gearboxes in cars like the Grand Am GT V6, Grand Prix GTP, and GXP
If Pontiac is suppose to be the GM division that competes or has a image like BMW, a good start would be to offer manual gearboxes in cars like the Grand Am GT V6, Grand Prix GTP, and GXP
11-21-2003, 05:50 PM
#38
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 2,926
Originally posted by 30thZ286speed
If Pontiac is suppose to be the GM division that competes or has a image like BMW, a good start would be to offer manual gearboxes in cars like the Grand Am GT V6, Grand Prix GTP, and GXP
If Pontiac is suppose to be the GM division that competes or has a image like BMW, a good start would be to offer manual gearboxes in cars like the Grand Am GT V6, Grand Prix GTP, and GXP
11-22-2003, 12:00 PM
#39
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 2,712
Originally posted by JoeliusZ28
they dont? I swear I remember seeing a commercial maybe 8 months back with a guy running through the gears in one [Grand am GT] out on the salts flats or some open place like it.
they dont? I swear I remember seeing a commercial maybe 8 months back with a guy running through the gears in one [Grand am GT] out on the salts flats or some open place like it.
11-22-2003, 11:24 PM
#40
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 329
i vote pontiac here. and i really see no need to post any proof because guioM already so whole heartedly provided it.
i will ask tho, why does the camaro have to be faster than the GTO? yes the camaro has to compete with the mustang and yes the camaro has to be a world class sports car. but that doesnt me it needs to be faster than a GTO. face it. i forsee only 40+ year old people buying a GTO and i think most will never see more than a catback and a CAI, IF that.
i will ask tho, why does the camaro have to be faster than the GTO? yes the camaro has to compete with the mustang and yes the camaro has to be a world class sports car. but that doesnt me it needs to be faster than a GTO. face it. i forsee only 40+ year old people buying a GTO and i think most will never see more than a catback and a CAI, IF that.
11-23-2003, 09:55 AM
#41
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
Originally posted by 87camracer
i will ask tho, why does the camaro have to be faster than the GTO? yes the camaro has to compete with the mustang and yes the camaro has to be a world class sports car. but that doesnt me it needs to be faster than a GTO.
i will ask tho, why does the camaro have to be faster than the GTO? yes the camaro has to compete with the mustang and yes the camaro has to be a world class sports car. but that doesnt me it needs to be faster than a GTO.
I'll tell ya....I have been caught completely off guard by this sudden and unexpected opinion by some that the GTO should be faster than Camaro.
Really, I haven't heard a convincing argument for it. Because the GTO may end up being marginally more expensive and luxurious than Camaro...it also needs to be faster?
I for one find that unacceptable. I think PacerX said it and I agree....The GTO crowd is not the one which will be chasing down Mustangs, just for giggles, (or something to that effect).
Last edited by Z284ever; 11-23-2003 at 04:00 PM.
11-23-2003, 04:15 PM
#42
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 329
thats my point. just because a camaro is slower than the GTO DOES NOT mean its gonna be slower than the mustang. another thing, the GTO might have more hp than the camaro but that doesnt mean its going to be faster. it just means it has more power.
11-23-2003, 05:54 PM
#43
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
Originally posted by 87camracer
thats my point. just because a camaro is slower than the GTO DOES NOT mean its gonna be slower than the mustang. another thing, the GTO might have more hp than the camaro but that doesnt mean its going to be faster. it just means it has more power.
thats my point. just because a camaro is slower than the GTO DOES NOT mean its gonna be slower than the mustang. another thing, the GTO might have more hp than the camaro but that doesnt mean its going to be faster. it just means it has more power.
1) First, I still haven't bought into the Camaro needing to be slower than GTO postulate.
2) So if a Camaro is faster than a 500+ hp Mustang...are you saying that GTO should be faster than that?
3)...or are you saying that GTO should have more horsepower but not actually be any faster?
Last edited by Z284ever; 11-23-2003 at 05:57 PM.
11-26-2003, 12:06 AM
#44
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cumberland Co, NC
Posts: 616
Originally posted by R377
Only the 4-cyl Grand Ams are available with the 5-speed Getrag. V6s get the slushbox only.
Only the 4-cyl Grand Ams are available with the 5-speed Getrag. V6s get the slushbox only.
11-26-2003, 05:27 AM
#45
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: At car shows and cruise nights!
Posts: 3,647
I also think that the division that has the Corvette should represent GM performance the most, and as always, that is Chevrolet.
And I might not care if the GTO has more HP than the 5th Gen because the car is so heavy, but if the HP is lower on 5ths they still better be faster because of weight, suspension, and aerodynamic differences.
And I might not care if the GTO has more HP than the 5th Gen because the car is so heavy, but if the HP is lower on 5ths they still better be faster because of weight, suspension, and aerodynamic differences.