The CCC
11-05-2008, 03:22 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
The CCC
I just wrote part 2 of my GM rant on my blog here.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/blog.php?b=60
After what probably is a bit of a rant, I mention what basis and why I feel that no matter what happens to General Motors, both Cadillac and Chevrolet will survive.
In short, Chevrolet is a massive car company in itself, essentially an American Toyota that has everything for everybody. Cadillac is certainly above Lexus and Infiniti and is actually getting a solid reputation as a stylish sports sedan around the world (as long as the current GM doesn't screw it up by not going with a slam dunk by making the DTS replacement RWD).
There would be a few stray models from other GM divisions that would survive. The the G8 line would fit neatly above the Impala. Either the Solstice or the Sky would fit at Chevrolet. Enclave over at Cadillac. Everything else would likely be wiped out if GM went bankrupt or was purchased (not a far streach: even Wal-Mart could pull off a controling intrest if not an actual buyout... Exxon could buy GM with the proverbial change in their couch cushion). Given GM's global resources, it's dominance in China, and it's negitive market value, GM would be a bargin if the buyer had freedom to buy out related contracts and obligations on the cheap and close whatever they felt necessary.
IMO, regardless as to what happens, the Cadillac-Chevrolet Corperation (what GM essentially is in North America anyway) will continue to survive.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/blog.php?b=60
After what probably is a bit of a rant, I mention what basis and why I feel that no matter what happens to General Motors, both Cadillac and Chevrolet will survive.
In short, Chevrolet is a massive car company in itself, essentially an American Toyota that has everything for everybody. Cadillac is certainly above Lexus and Infiniti and is actually getting a solid reputation as a stylish sports sedan around the world (as long as the current GM doesn't screw it up by not going with a slam dunk by making the DTS replacement RWD).
There would be a few stray models from other GM divisions that would survive. The the G8 line would fit neatly above the Impala. Either the Solstice or the Sky would fit at Chevrolet. Enclave over at Cadillac. Everything else would likely be wiped out if GM went bankrupt or was purchased (not a far streach: even Wal-Mart could pull off a controling intrest if not an actual buyout... Exxon could buy GM with the proverbial change in their couch cushion). Given GM's global resources, it's dominance in China, and it's negitive market value, GM would be a bargin if the buyer had freedom to buy out related contracts and obligations on the cheap and close whatever they felt necessary.
IMO, regardless as to what happens, the Cadillac-Chevrolet Corperation (what GM essentially is in North America anyway) will continue to survive.
11-05-2008, 03:39 PM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 8,504
I have concerns about Cadillac's general direction right now.
And I have been a noted fan of Cadillac's huge turn-around that, IMO, started with the original CTS.
So much so, that I finally put my money where my mouth was and bought a brand new Cadillac.
My problem is that I am concerned that what I thuoght was going to be a division of unique platform vehicles for the most part, looks like it may just turn into a luxury rebadge division.
Take the 2010 SRX for example... Saturn VUE, Chevy Equinox......... and now Cadillac SRX. Dont like it a bit. I dont care how many luxo-gadgets are put on it, it's still a gussied up VUE/Equinox. I suppose that has worked with Escalade all along, but there wasn't really a viable alternative to doing that type of vehicle in the past.
Now the next gen Escalade will be another rebadge.... on Lambda though.
XLR gets a pass since it's on the Corvette platform and is very limited in production.
The CTS, STS and SRX are unique because they are on the Cadillac-only Sigma platform and are rear-wheel drive based. The new SRX will be FWD based. The Lambda Escalade will be FWD based.
Who knows what is really instore for STS and/or DTS.
Finally, if you HAVE to add the 2010 SRX to the lineup, why not keep it named BRX like it was originally planned, rather than using the SRX name that really doesn't fit the vehicle or the naming stucture that was supposedly in place? The whole 3-letter nomenclature Cadillac was supposedly using is out the window now...
S series... STS and SRX, but now SRX doesnt fit since it's a different platform that the STS.
C series... CTS is here, but shouldn't the coupe be a CTC, and the wagon a CTW or at least CTX or something? I presume they will simply be CTS coupe and CTS wagon.
[end rant]
And I have been a noted fan of Cadillac's huge turn-around that, IMO, started with the original CTS.
So much so, that I finally put my money where my mouth was and bought a brand new Cadillac.
My problem is that I am concerned that what I thuoght was going to be a division of unique platform vehicles for the most part, looks like it may just turn into a luxury rebadge division.
Take the 2010 SRX for example... Saturn VUE, Chevy Equinox......... and now Cadillac SRX. Dont like it a bit. I dont care how many luxo-gadgets are put on it, it's still a gussied up VUE/Equinox. I suppose that has worked with Escalade all along, but there wasn't really a viable alternative to doing that type of vehicle in the past.
Now the next gen Escalade will be another rebadge.... on Lambda though.
XLR gets a pass since it's on the Corvette platform and is very limited in production.
The CTS, STS and SRX are unique because they are on the Cadillac-only Sigma platform and are rear-wheel drive based. The new SRX will be FWD based. The Lambda Escalade will be FWD based.
Who knows what is really instore for STS and/or DTS.
Finally, if you HAVE to add the 2010 SRX to the lineup, why not keep it named BRX like it was originally planned, rather than using the SRX name that really doesn't fit the vehicle or the naming stucture that was supposedly in place? The whole 3-letter nomenclature Cadillac was supposedly using is out the window now...
S series... STS and SRX, but now SRX doesnt fit since it's a different platform that the STS.
C series... CTS is here, but shouldn't the coupe be a CTC, and the wagon a CTW or at least CTX or something? I presume they will simply be CTS coupe and CTS wagon.
[end rant]
Last edited by Darth Xed; 11-05-2008 at 03:51 PM.
11-05-2008, 04:35 PM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Irving, TX
Posts: 1,448
About the Equinox/Vue/New Caddy, I think it would be fine. Many car companies, have cars based off the same platform and do this.
Lexus does this with all of their SUV's.
So does Infiniti and Acura. With the right amount of upgrades and style to distinguish them (Traverse to Enclave is a good example), it would make perfect sense.
Lexus does this with all of their SUV's.
So does Infiniti and Acura. With the right amount of upgrades and style to distinguish them (Traverse to Enclave is a good example), it would make perfect sense.
11-05-2008, 05:04 PM
#5
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: FL/MI
Posts: 1,808
I have concerns about Cadillac's general direction right now.
And I have been a noted fan of Cadillac's huge turn-around that, IMO, started with the original CTS.
So much so, that I finally put my money where my mouth was and bought a brand new Cadillac.
My problem is that I am concerned that what I thuoght was going to be a division of unique platform vehicles for the most part, looks like it may just turn into a luxury rebadge division.
[end rant]
And I have been a noted fan of Cadillac's huge turn-around that, IMO, started with the original CTS.
So much so, that I finally put my money where my mouth was and bought a brand new Cadillac.
My problem is that I am concerned that what I thuoght was going to be a division of unique platform vehicles for the most part, looks like it may just turn into a luxury rebadge division.
[end rant]
Cadillac vehicles do offer the goods. Whatever may show up in engines, or tech touches, will never be the most complete package Caddy offers. Take, for example, the Escalade. Branded and packaged otherwise, it still hasthe edge worth having... If you can afford to go the extra financial distance.
If you are a Chevy minded sort as I am, the subtle differences can seem small... but there is a palpable difference. It's very tangible. Then again, it can be moot. Pragmatists can share your kind of concerns.
I'll share a story, if you don't mind, that speaks to this sort or quandry.
I have a friend of long standing. We are pals... we share a passion for cars and he has the financial ability do do waht some of us might exploit...
Among his present rides are a Ferrari 550 Maranello, a Lamborghini Gallardo, and some lesser esteemed rides.
Here's my point, if there actually is one... We went to lunch the other day and he brought his Ferrari 550 Maranello as the ride of the day. He knows I respect Ferrari cars.
Here's the point... The 550 is a Z06 sort of car. I own a Z06... a tweaked Z06. The bottom line is a fellow like me sees and doesn't see the difference between a Z06 and a large dollar Ferrari. The Ferrari 550 is a sweet car. It doesn't shame a Z06 in the least. . . it does have some strong points. IOW. killer touches are nice... but fast is fast.
I don't value supple leather as much as I value juice when you stomp the pedal. Handling is handling.
Here's the bottom line. Cadillac delivers the subtle differences. They have only as much value as you place on them.
Last edited by 1fastdog; 11-05-2008 at 05:10 PM.
11-05-2008, 05:47 PM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
I just wrote part 2 of my GM rant on my blog here.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/blog.php?b=60
After what probably is a bit of a rant, I mention what basis and why I feel that no matter what happens to General Motors, both Cadillac and Chevrolet will survive.
In short, Chevrolet is a massive car company in itself, essentially an American Toyota that has everything for everybody. Cadillac is certainly above Lexus and Infiniti and is actually getting a solid reputation as a stylish sports sedan around the world (as long as the current GM doesn't screw it up by not going with a slam dunk by making the DTS replacement RWD).
There would be a few stray models from other GM divisions that would survive. The the G8 line would fit neatly above the Impala. Either the Solstice or the Sky would fit at Chevrolet. Enclave over at Cadillac. Everything else would likely be wiped out if GM went bankrupt or was purchased (not a far streach: even Wal-Mart could pull off a controling intrest if not an actual buyout... Exxon could buy GM with the proverbial change in their couch cushion). Given GM's global resources, it's dominance in China, and it's negitive market value, GM would be a bargin if the buyer had freedom to buy out related contracts and obligations on the cheap and close whatever they felt necessary.
IMO, regardless as to what happens, the Cadillac-Chevrolet Corperation (what GM essentially is in North America anyway) will continue to survive.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/blog.php?b=60
After what probably is a bit of a rant, I mention what basis and why I feel that no matter what happens to General Motors, both Cadillac and Chevrolet will survive.
In short, Chevrolet is a massive car company in itself, essentially an American Toyota that has everything for everybody. Cadillac is certainly above Lexus and Infiniti and is actually getting a solid reputation as a stylish sports sedan around the world (as long as the current GM doesn't screw it up by not going with a slam dunk by making the DTS replacement RWD).
There would be a few stray models from other GM divisions that would survive. The the G8 line would fit neatly above the Impala. Either the Solstice or the Sky would fit at Chevrolet. Enclave over at Cadillac. Everything else would likely be wiped out if GM went bankrupt or was purchased (not a far streach: even Wal-Mart could pull off a controling intrest if not an actual buyout... Exxon could buy GM with the proverbial change in their couch cushion). Given GM's global resources, it's dominance in China, and it's negitive market value, GM would be a bargin if the buyer had freedom to buy out related contracts and obligations on the cheap and close whatever they felt necessary.
IMO, regardless as to what happens, the Cadillac-Chevrolet Corperation (what GM essentially is in North America anyway) will continue to survive.
Something tells me you KNOW something about GM's impending announcement come this Friday wrt the Chrysler merger.
Tell me I'm wrong!
11-05-2008, 06:49 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 1,897
To be perfectly honest, I'd rather see GM "die", become Chevy/caddy... maybe hummer
(Come on, the new HT is REALLY cool!) than see GM as a whole go down in flames. It would be sad to see buick, pontiac, and saturn go, but sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. I wouldn't have said any of this a year ago, but it's do or die time now 
As a side note, let's say GM does axe buick/pontiac/hummer/saturn... does GM sell them off? If they don't sell them off, just kill 'em, does that mean they would owe a crapload of $$$ to dealer networks? How many jobs would be lost?
What about GMC?
Last edited by Silverado C-10; 11-05-2008 at 06:52 PM.
11-05-2008, 09:16 PM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 858
I like Cadillacs direction, I really do.
However, I honestly think that they need to go big, or go home. Cadillac should be competing straight-up with the best from Germany and Japan. A Cadillac should be the best GM can possibly produce.
NOT, any kind of FWD value-mobile. They're letting the beancounters back in, and it has me worried.
However, I honestly think that they need to go big, or go home. Cadillac should be competing straight-up with the best from Germany and Japan. A Cadillac should be the best GM can possibly produce.
NOT, any kind of FWD value-mobile. They're letting the beancounters back in, and it has me worried.
11-06-2008, 05:27 AM
#10
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Most likely, GM will do what it historically does: Freeze new products, jumble around titles, close some factories, and as they slowly come out of this, only release the cheapest new or restyled models and sell them via incentives, low pricing, and rebates while the basic bureaucracy continues in perhaps smaller form.
Cerberus is mainly looking to get the remainder of GMAC, so I don't believe the lack of government money will stop any possibility of GM getting at least part of Chrysler if not the whole thing.
Going to th subject of Cadillac, I mentioned that GM's biggest error is backtracking on alot of it's own game changing great ideas. Cadillac is also falling victim to GM's own self castration.
In a few years, the SRX will become a badge engineered Vue. The Escalade will become the 5th version of the Lambada. If GM cancels the RWD DTS/STS replacement in favor of the FWD/AWD Espilon large, followed by a FWD CTS at the next revision, Cadillac's hard won new global reputation will be ruined for years.
11-06-2008, 07:16 AM
#11
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Sterling Heights, MI
Posts: 6,166
It kind of sounds like Lincoln of a few years ago. Basically, Ford re-badges with nicer interior touches. I don't want to see Caddy revert back to that. It reeks of luxury pretender.
11-06-2008, 07:56 AM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Pewee Valley, KY
Posts: 4,600
1fastdog, It sounds as if you just aren't the market that would buy a luxury car in general, so perhaps your argument is void.
As far as closing Saturn, Pontiac, Buick, and GMC I agree with many when they say it needs to be done but so many questions and hard decisions have to be made that I can't see it happening anytime soon. But should it happen I would like to see Buick, GMC, and Pontiac become trim line designations. Perhaps Buick becomes a luxury trim while Pontiac becomes a sports trim and GMC becomes the equivalent of the Z71 package (hardcore off road) or professional grade work truck package. I would like to see something happen with those historic names.
As far as closing Saturn, Pontiac, Buick, and GMC I agree with many when they say it needs to be done but so many questions and hard decisions have to be made that I can't see it happening anytime soon. But should it happen I would like to see Buick, GMC, and Pontiac become trim line designations. Perhaps Buick becomes a luxury trim while Pontiac becomes a sports trim and GMC becomes the equivalent of the Z71 package (hardcore off road) or professional grade work truck package. I would like to see something happen with those historic names.
11-06-2008, 09:04 AM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Arcadia, OK
Posts: 669
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Chevrolet, Cadillac, Pontiac, Buick, GMC, Saturn, etc. actually just marketing companies? Does, for example, Pontiac actually manufacture a product? Isn't General Motors the manufacturer, with Pontiac serving solely as a sales/marketing channel?
11-06-2008, 09:18 AM
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Pewee Valley, KY
Posts: 4,600
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Chevrolet, Cadillac, Pontiac, Buick, GMC, Saturn, etc. actually just marketing companies? Does, for example, Pontiac actually manufacture a product? Isn't General Motors the manufacturer, with Pontiac serving solely as a sales/marketing channel?
11-06-2008, 12:49 PM
#15
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Chevrolet, Cadillac, Pontiac, Buick, GMC, Saturn, etc. actually just marketing companies? Does, for example, Pontiac actually manufacture a product? Isn't General Motors the manufacturer, with Pontiac serving solely as a sales/marketing channel?
Another tidbit: It's generally more expensive to market those divisions than it is to create the cosmetic variations of the same vehicles that those divisions sell.
The natural question becomes "[i]Why not simply get rid of excess divisions and save alot of money[i]?"
Answer "It's far more expensive to kill in the short term than simply continue them and throw more badge engineered vehicles into each division". Between the dealer networks and those that would lose jobs, GM would owe them alot of money (ie: when GM killed off Oldsmobile).
Want to hear a catch 22?
GM needs to be pretty rich and healthy to afford to kill off divisions.... but if GM were rich and healthy, it would be those very divisions they need to kill that would be making strong profits.