Automotive News / Industry / Future Vehicle Discussion Automotive news and discussion about upcoming vehicles

Camless engines by '08?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 12:55 PM
  #16  
RussStang's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
Re: Camless engines by '08?

Originally Posted by unvc92camarors
Imagine what an LSx engine could do with this technology. Still be one of the lightest setups and have even more power than they do now.

And also, no cam changes. Just a laptop; how nice is that?
I doubt the LS engine would be one of the lightest setups anymore, seeing as you wouldn't need a bulky overhead cam head if you don't need cams. I would expect all engines to get smaller from this.
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 01:12 PM
  #17  
MissedShift's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 858
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Re: Camless engines by '08?

For the tip off on who is moving in this path fastest, look for a manufacturer to introduce a 24v (28v, your choice) electrical system first, if not higher. That is the first step towards anything like this.
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 01:20 PM
  #18  
JakeRobb's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,507
From: Okemos, MI
Re: Camless engines by '08?

The new car electrical systems are supposed to be 42 volts, not 24 or 28.
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 01:50 PM
  #19  
falchulk's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,881
Re: Camless engines by '08?

Originally Posted by JakeRobb
The new car electrical systems are supposed to be 42 volts, not 24 or 28.

heh heh. no kidding! I think he missed more then a shift the last few years
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 02:11 PM
  #20  
rlchv70's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 681
Re: Camless engines by '08?

The article states:

Much of the energy produced by the engine is lost because the crankshaft has to spin the camshaft.

Horsepower, torque and fuel economy are improved because the crankshaft's power is driving only the wheels.
This is absolutely not true!!! It still takes the same amount of energy to open and close the valves. Instead of spinning the camshaft, the crankshaft has to spin the alternator harder.

I dont think the results would be that bad. I would think at the most, that cylinder would be out of commision.
If you only hit on 1 cylinder, it would still be bad news. You would need remove the engine and rebuild. Camless technology is expensive to develop because every time it messes up, it takes out the engine!

It depends on the specific engine design.

If you have what's termed an intereference type engine...like most Hondas for example....valves and piston can come crashing together. If it's a non-interference engine...like most domestics...it won't.
As compression ratios increase, this becomes more of a concern. I would be willing to bet that most current production engines would interfere with a broken timing chain. However, timing belts, chains, and tensioners have greatly improved in quality.

This is awesome technology. AT IDLE, the valves open and close about 5 times a SECOND! At 6000 rpm, they open and close at 50 times per second!! To put this in perspective, the picture changes on a TV 60 times per second.

Randy
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 03:05 PM
  #21  
falchulk's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,881
Re: Camless engines by '08?

Originally Posted by rlchv70
The article states:



This is absolutely not true!!! It still takes the same amount of energy to open and close the valves. Instead of spinning the camshaft, the crankshaft has to spin the alternator harder.



If you only hit on 1 cylinder, it would still be bad news. You would need remove the engine and rebuild. Camless technology is expensive to develop because every time it messes up, it takes out the engine!



As compression ratios increase, this becomes more of a concern. I would be willing to bet that most current production engines would interfere with a broken timing chain. However, timing belts, chains, and tensioners have greatly improved in quality.

This is awesome technology. AT IDLE, the valves open and close about 5 times a SECOND! At 6000 rpm, they open and close at 50 times per second!! To put this in perspective, the picture changes on a TV 60 times per second.

Randy
Side note: TV picture changes 30fps, not 60fps. Each interlaced field takes place 60 times per second.


My point about 1 cylinder going down is that a sensor could shut the fuel to that cylinder down and you could still get to where you were going. Sure it would have to be repaired, thats a no brainer.
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 03:13 PM
  #22  
muckz's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,402
From: Toronto, ON Canada
Re: Camless engines by '08?

Originally Posted by falchulk
Side note: TV picture changes 30fps, not 60fps. Each interlaced field takes place 60 times per second.


My point about 1 cylinder going down is that a sensor could shut the fuel to that cylinder down and you could still get to where you were going. Sure it would have to be repaired, thats a no brainer.
It will probably take out 2 cylinders, not just one.

Having said that, i don't understand why every car still does not have interference free design.
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 03:15 PM
  #23  
Chrome383Z's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,043
From: Shelbyville, IN
Re: Camless engines by '08?

Originally Posted by unvc92camarors
Imagine what an LSx engine could do with this technology. Still be one of the lightest setups and have even more power than they do now.

And also, no cam changes. Just a laptop; how nice is that?
A Electronic solenoid on a cartridge valve weighs I'd guess around a POUND. And these only have to open and close several times a MINUTE, not a SECOND.

To build one strong enough to hand 20-40x per second look for this to weight 2-3 pounds FOR EACH VALVE. 16x3 = 48lbs. This technology will ADD weight, not subtract it.
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 03:32 PM
  #24  
rlchv70's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 681
Re: Camless engines by '08?

Originally Posted by muckz
It will probably take out 2 cylinders, not just one.

Having said that, i don't understand why every car still does not have interference free design.
How would it take out 2 cylinders?

In order to have an interference free design, there must be enough room for the valves to be fully open when the piston is at top dead center. To do this, you either have to have a huge combustion chamber or huge cutouts in the pistons. Neither of these leads to efficient combustion.

Randy
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 03:56 PM
  #25  
R377's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,712
From: Ontario
Re: Camless engines by '08?

Originally Posted by JakeRobb
The new car electrical systems are supposed to be 42 volts, not 24 or 28.
42 VDC is not likely to happen due to issues with electrical arcing, faster corrosion of electrical components, and light bulb life. There's also the added cost, since the car would be a hybrid 14 VDC and 42 VDC system.

But if they don't go to 42 VDC then all those solenoids and related equipment end up being 1/3 larger due to the increase in amperage needed to produce the same power. This further complicates packaging and weight issues.
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 04:00 PM
  #26  
ImportedRoomate's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,647
From: Jupiter, FL
Re: Camless engines by '08?

Back in August we heard Mercedes would have this in their C class.
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392900
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 04:10 PM
  #27  
JakeRobb's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,507
From: Okemos, MI
Re: Camless engines by '08?

Originally Posted by Chrome383Z
To build one strong enough to hand 20-40x per second look for this to weight 2-3 pounds FOR EACH VALVE. 16x3 = 48lbs. This technology will ADD weight, not subtract it.
You're forgetting to take off all of the gear that wouldn't be needed anymore. I'll bet you can come up with 48 lbs worth:

Camshaft(s), cam drive sprocket(s), the sprocket on the crank the drives them, the chain/belt/gears that connect the crank sprocket to the cam sprockets, rockers, lifters, springs...
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 04:29 PM
  #28  
SSbaby's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Camless engines by '08?

Originally Posted by JakeRobb
You're forgetting to take off all of the gear that wouldn't be needed anymore. I'll bet you can come up with 48 lbs worth:

Camshaft(s), cam drive sprocket(s), the sprocket on the crank the drives them, the chain/belt/gears that connect the crank sprocket to the cam sprockets, rockers, lifters, springs...
Then there's the frictional component of the camshaft itself... which is the gist of it.
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 04:36 PM
  #29  
1990 Turbo Grand Prix's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 764
From: Crystal Falls, MI USA
Re: Camless engines by '08?

I question hood clearance with large valve control packs over the heads. How much taller would these be?

Personally, I can see this being a mechanic's worst nightmare.....
Old Oct 14, 2005 | 04:39 PM
  #30  
HAZ-Matt's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
Re: Camless engines by '08?

Does the article mention how the valves are actually actuated by the magnets? Do they open the valves or does the magnet hold them close, then turn off to allow them to open. If the magnet causes them to open it would be better in the event of magnet failure cause it would just be sorta like DOD.



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:51 PM.