Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
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Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,801
From: Nashville, TN
Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
Just because you've been a member on CamaroZ28.com for 4 years doesn't mean you are an "old pro" in the 5th gen forum.
Based on the information and opinions in your above post, it's perfectly clear to me and others here that you are not very well informed at all.
I still don't see anything that causes me to change that stance.
A. Thank you for your service.
B. Just because you serve doesn't mean your opinions are beyond criticism, remember that. Quite frankly your service is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
Bam, right there you show your ignorance (not a flame, I mean lack of knowledge) of the subject. The cancellation had as much to do with internal politics, positioning and union contracts as with sales. Everyone here that is informed knows this.
I'll give you 1/2 a point here. Demand for these cars used isn't that great, which is reflected in trade in values, though not always in re-sale pricing. However, this is not a new development, so saying it has to do with gas prices is not valid. The used-fbody pricing situation has been the same for at least a decade.
Yeah, probably. I think you are making a lot of assumptions.
Wrong again. By the end, the tooling had been paid for years ago and the cars were actually mildly profitable.
And tell me more about this "cost-benefit analysis"? I've never heard of that term before....
In inflationary dollars, yes. But in inflation adjusted dollars, you are wrong. The cost of natural resources has been going down steadily for centuries as extraction and refinement technologies improve. In the short term gas is expensive, but adjusted for inflation gas is far cheaper than it was in the 1st 1/2 of the 20th century.
I appreciate your passion, but you really need to do your homework because a lot of your assumptions are just not accurate.
Based on the information and opinions in your above post, it's perfectly clear to me and others here that you are not very well informed at all.
I still don't see anything that causes me to change that stance.
Yea I do that on occasion, granted it's more of a dodging action,and is because I am out defending all those wonderful freedoms you enjoy as an American.
B. Just because you serve doesn't mean your opinions are beyond criticism, remember that. Quite frankly your service is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
Second off, let us not forget that one of the most influential reasons that our beloved Camaro has been scratched from the Chevrolet lineup in the first place is because of DRASTICALLY declineing sales...
I am 21, I have had my 94Z since the ripe age of 16. I have no less that 25 friends under the age of 25 that own cars similar to mine. Why? Because we can now purcahse a well kept 4th gen, clean, low millage for dirt cheap prices. Why is that? Hmmm, it could'nt be a demand issue could it?
Looks like people really care about gas prices after all!
Looks like people really care about gas prices after all!
The vast majority of what is left is either in their midlife crisis or JUST ABOUT to find out that the vehicle in which they love so much is no longer practical for their applications. Oh, I am probably just talking out of my ***.
Now, studies conducted by the very companies that produce the automobiles...no better yet...studies conducted by contracted, independant companies completely serpeate from any corporate ties and/or design influence do this little thing called cost-benefit anaylisis. Does the product I am producing create a loss or a gain for me? Well the answer is not a matter of loss or gain in this case, the answer is merely that our Fbodies were NOT creating the kind of profit margin acceptable for an automobile to thrive.
And tell me more about this "cost-benefit analysis"? I've never heard of that term before....
And newsflash...they are staying up. It's called inflation, a natural evolution... This evolution follows closely the trend of many other drastic changes in technology, ie STEEL and FABRICATION at the turn of the century.
I appreciate your passion, but you really need to do your homework because a lot of your assumptions are just not accurate.
Last edited by Chris 96 WS6; Apr 12, 2005 at 01:35 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
Originally Posted by strokin polo
First off, no im not new, if you would have checked it out, im going on what...4 years on the board? As for hiding under rocks? Yea I do that on occasion, granted it's more of a dodging action,and is because I am out defending all those wonderful freedoms you enjoy as an American.
Second off, let us not forget that one of the most influential reasons that our beloved Camaro has been scratched from the Chevrolet lineup in the first place is because of DRASTICALLY declineing sales...argue that...seriously...NOW let us get into who buys our beloved Fbodies...I am 21, I have had my 94Z since the ripe age of 16. I have no less that 25 friends under the age of 25 that own cars similar to mine. Why? Because we can now purcahse a well kept 4th gen, clean, low millage for dirt cheap prices. Why is that? Hmmm, it could'nt be a demand issue could it? Looks like people really care about gas prices after all! The vast majority of what is left is either in their midlife crisis or JUST ABOUT to find out that the vehicle in which they love so much is no longer practical for their applications. Oh, I am probably just talking out of my ***.
Now, studies conducted by the very companies that produce the automobiles...no better yet...studies conducted by contracted, independant companies completely serpeate from any corporate ties and/or design influence do this little thing called cost-benefit anaylisis. Does the product I am producing create a loss or a gain for me? Well the answer is not a matter of loss or gain in this case, the answer is merely that our Fbodies were NOT creating the kind of profit margin acceptable for an automobile to thrive. Especially in a market as violent and hungry as the sports car market. Costs were too high, daily maintenance was through the roof. Who wants to pay 200 a month for insurance then turn around and spend 30 to fill their tank? Well yes...I would. But we are a breed. We are not the norm, and thus overlooked by the bean counters. It's the numbers buddy. It's not me.
OK OK, I know that history has this funny little way of repeating itself and thats fine and dandy. I hope EVERY DAY that we will see a drop in petroleum cost, and that MAYBE JUST MAYBE they were wrong about alternative fuels...O wait, looks like they already got that one covered huh? POINT IS, the auto industry has alot more to worry about concerning new technologies and program advancement including applications directly specific to the issues confronting us TODAY. It would certainly not be in their practical interests to "pro-rate a platform to meet tomorrows POTENTIAL (highly unlikely) enviroment". By this I mean, why create a muscle car today with the hopes that people will buy it tomorrow? If you could answer this question for me, you would certainly be solving a problem GM has faced for centuries.
Fuel prices are up. And newsflash...they are staying up. It's called inflation, a natural evolution... This evolution follows closely the trend of many other drastic changes in technology, ie STEEL and FABRICATION at the turn of the century. This is what happend...steel got OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive thus creating the need of an alternative material, and the incorporation of said material into our every day life. Now, nearly every product in our car, in our home, in our office is plastic or rubber? Coincidence? I truely think not. I sure do love all that chrome on our cars these days!!!!
More 2 come i am sure.
Charlie
Second off, let us not forget that one of the most influential reasons that our beloved Camaro has been scratched from the Chevrolet lineup in the first place is because of DRASTICALLY declineing sales...argue that...seriously...NOW let us get into who buys our beloved Fbodies...I am 21, I have had my 94Z since the ripe age of 16. I have no less that 25 friends under the age of 25 that own cars similar to mine. Why? Because we can now purcahse a well kept 4th gen, clean, low millage for dirt cheap prices. Why is that? Hmmm, it could'nt be a demand issue could it? Looks like people really care about gas prices after all! The vast majority of what is left is either in their midlife crisis or JUST ABOUT to find out that the vehicle in which they love so much is no longer practical for their applications. Oh, I am probably just talking out of my ***.
Now, studies conducted by the very companies that produce the automobiles...no better yet...studies conducted by contracted, independant companies completely serpeate from any corporate ties and/or design influence do this little thing called cost-benefit anaylisis. Does the product I am producing create a loss or a gain for me? Well the answer is not a matter of loss or gain in this case, the answer is merely that our Fbodies were NOT creating the kind of profit margin acceptable for an automobile to thrive. Especially in a market as violent and hungry as the sports car market. Costs were too high, daily maintenance was through the roof. Who wants to pay 200 a month for insurance then turn around and spend 30 to fill their tank? Well yes...I would. But we are a breed. We are not the norm, and thus overlooked by the bean counters. It's the numbers buddy. It's not me.
OK OK, I know that history has this funny little way of repeating itself and thats fine and dandy. I hope EVERY DAY that we will see a drop in petroleum cost, and that MAYBE JUST MAYBE they were wrong about alternative fuels...O wait, looks like they already got that one covered huh? POINT IS, the auto industry has alot more to worry about concerning new technologies and program advancement including applications directly specific to the issues confronting us TODAY. It would certainly not be in their practical interests to "pro-rate a platform to meet tomorrows POTENTIAL (highly unlikely) enviroment". By this I mean, why create a muscle car today with the hopes that people will buy it tomorrow? If you could answer this question for me, you would certainly be solving a problem GM has faced for centuries.
Fuel prices are up. And newsflash...they are staying up. It's called inflation, a natural evolution... This evolution follows closely the trend of many other drastic changes in technology, ie STEEL and FABRICATION at the turn of the century. This is what happend...steel got OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive thus creating the need of an alternative material, and the incorporation of said material into our every day life. Now, nearly every product in our car, in our home, in our office is plastic or rubber? Coincidence? I truely think not. I sure do love all that chrome on our cars these days!!!!
More 2 come i am sure.
Charlie
Paragraphs... know them... love them... use them...
I saw this post and looking at it gave me a headache.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,600
From: Pewee Valley, KY
Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
Originally Posted by strokin polo
First off, no im not new, if you would have checked it out, im going on what...4 years on the board? As for hiding under rocks? Yea I do that on occasion, granted it's more of a dodging action,and is because I am out defending all those wonderful freedoms you enjoy as an American.
Second off, let us not forget that one of the most influential reasons that our beloved Camaro has been scratched from the Chevrolet lineup in the first place is because of DRASTICALLY declineing sales...argue that...seriously...NOW let us get into who buys our beloved Fbodies...I am 21, I have had my 94Z since the ripe age of 16. I have no less that 25 friends under the age of 25 that own cars similar to mine. Why? Because we can now purcahse a well kept 4th gen, clean, low millage for dirt cheap prices. Why is that? Hmmm, it could'nt be a demand issue could it? Looks like people really care about gas prices after all! The vast majority of what is left is either in their midlife crisis or JUST ABOUT to find out that the vehicle in which they love so much is no longer practical for their applications. Oh, I am probably just talking out of my ***.
Now, studies conducted by the very companies that produce the automobiles...no better yet...studies conducted by contracted, independant companies completely serpeate from any corporate ties and/or design influence do this little thing called cost-benefit anaylisis. Does the product I am producing create a loss or a gain for me? Well the answer is not a matter of loss or gain in this case, the answer is merely that our Fbodies were NOT creating the kind of profit margin acceptable for an automobile to thrive. Especially in a market as violent and hungry as the sports car market. Costs were too high, daily maintenance was through the roof. Who wants to pay 200 a month for insurance then turn around and spend 30 to fill their tank? Well yes...I would. But we are a breed. We are not the norm, and thus overlooked by the bean counters. It's the numbers buddy. It's not me.
OK OK, I know that history has this funny little way of repeating itself and thats fine and dandy. I hope EVERY DAY that we will see a drop in petroleum cost, and that MAYBE JUST MAYBE they were wrong about alternative fuels...O wait, looks like they already got that one covered huh? POINT IS, the auto industry has alot more to worry about concerning new technologies and program advancement including applications directly specific to the issues confronting us TODAY. It would certainly not be in their practical interests to "pro-rate a platform to meet tomorrows POTENTIAL (highly unlikely) enviroment". By this I mean, why create a muscle car today with the hopes that people will buy it tomorrow? If you could answer this question for me, you would certainly be solving a problem GM has faced for centuries.
Fuel prices are up. And newsflash...they are staying up. It's called inflation, a natural evolution... This evolution follows closely the trend of many other drastic changes in technology, ie STEEL and FABRICATION at the turn of the century. This is what happend...steel got OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive thus creating the need of an alternative material, and the incorporation of said material into our every day life. Now, nearly every product in our car, in our home, in our office is plastic or rubber? Coincidence? I truely think not. I sure do love all that chrome on our cars these days!!!!
More 2 come i am sure.
Charlie
Second off, let us not forget that one of the most influential reasons that our beloved Camaro has been scratched from the Chevrolet lineup in the first place is because of DRASTICALLY declineing sales...argue that...seriously...NOW let us get into who buys our beloved Fbodies...I am 21, I have had my 94Z since the ripe age of 16. I have no less that 25 friends under the age of 25 that own cars similar to mine. Why? Because we can now purcahse a well kept 4th gen, clean, low millage for dirt cheap prices. Why is that? Hmmm, it could'nt be a demand issue could it? Looks like people really care about gas prices after all! The vast majority of what is left is either in their midlife crisis or JUST ABOUT to find out that the vehicle in which they love so much is no longer practical for their applications. Oh, I am probably just talking out of my ***.
Now, studies conducted by the very companies that produce the automobiles...no better yet...studies conducted by contracted, independant companies completely serpeate from any corporate ties and/or design influence do this little thing called cost-benefit anaylisis. Does the product I am producing create a loss or a gain for me? Well the answer is not a matter of loss or gain in this case, the answer is merely that our Fbodies were NOT creating the kind of profit margin acceptable for an automobile to thrive. Especially in a market as violent and hungry as the sports car market. Costs were too high, daily maintenance was through the roof. Who wants to pay 200 a month for insurance then turn around and spend 30 to fill their tank? Well yes...I would. But we are a breed. We are not the norm, and thus overlooked by the bean counters. It's the numbers buddy. It's not me.
OK OK, I know that history has this funny little way of repeating itself and thats fine and dandy. I hope EVERY DAY that we will see a drop in petroleum cost, and that MAYBE JUST MAYBE they were wrong about alternative fuels...O wait, looks like they already got that one covered huh? POINT IS, the auto industry has alot more to worry about concerning new technologies and program advancement including applications directly specific to the issues confronting us TODAY. It would certainly not be in their practical interests to "pro-rate a platform to meet tomorrows POTENTIAL (highly unlikely) enviroment". By this I mean, why create a muscle car today with the hopes that people will buy it tomorrow? If you could answer this question for me, you would certainly be solving a problem GM has faced for centuries.
Fuel prices are up. And newsflash...they are staying up. It's called inflation, a natural evolution... This evolution follows closely the trend of many other drastic changes in technology, ie STEEL and FABRICATION at the turn of the century. This is what happend...steel got OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive thus creating the need of an alternative material, and the incorporation of said material into our every day life. Now, nearly every product in our car, in our home, in our office is plastic or rubber? Coincidence? I truely think not. I sure do love all that chrome on our cars these days!!!!
More 2 come i am sure.
Charlie
I am Casey. I will let you in on something. GM knows there is a GLARING hole in their product lineup. GM wants a Mustang competitor. It is coming The questions raised now are: When?, What platform?, What options?, and How much?. We don't have answers to those questions but if you read this section of the board for a while you may get some answers.
Thanks and have a good day.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,129
From: Detroit, MI
Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
Originally Posted by SCNGENNFTHGEN
I see a ton of Camaros, Firebirds, and... ok Mustangs too, and now Magnums, 300c's, and they are all V8 RWD. So IMO you are couldn't be more wrong. RWD is where its at always was, always will be. RWD is funner in the snow ... Wooo Hooo! GM just needs to get some vehicle out there to compete again, and hopefully soon. Time's a wastin'!
-Magnum...a spacious station wagen with *****, capeable of transporting more than a bag of groceries or two...
-300C...A comoforable grandpa car that looks like a Bently...with *****
-Mustang...WAY cheaper than our pony cars...with...really small *****
Funner in the snow? Come on! Although I enjoy sliding sideways at a stoplight and digging my car out of my driveway every other day during the winter, not everyone is like me! More fun in the summer DEFFINATLY.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Detroit, MI
Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
Charlie,
I am Casey. I will let you in on something. GM knows there is a GLARING hole in their product lineup. GM wants a Mustang competitor. It is coming The questions raised now are: When?, What platform?, What options?, and How much?. We don't have answers to those questions but if you read this section of the board for a while you may get some answers.
Thanks and have a good day.
I am Casey. I will let you in on something. GM knows there is a GLARING hole in their product lineup. GM wants a Mustang competitor. It is coming The questions raised now are: When?, What platform?, What options?, and How much?. We don't have answers to those questions but if you read this section of the board for a while you may get some answers.
Thanks and have a good day.
As posted by Dcalado_ on Project Camaro.com's Forums...
Work on the new 5th generation Camaro, although GM will tell you different, began about two years ago in almost a skunkworks fashion. It was a difficult task for GM to perform in secret especially during the acrimonious final year of the fourth generation Camaro. GM constantly referring to the Camaro being on “Hiatus” is a sure sign that they were not fully giving up on the Camaro. Initial work was largely marketing studies, seeing what potential Camaro buyer must have, would like to have, and defiantly don’t want. This kind of research is done before engineering and design on a new car program. Camaro is the 3rd most recognized name in GM’s portfolio, and it has understandably become notion at GM that it had to come back. The current team working on the new Camaro is pushing to build a car that will be appealing not only when it’s released, but 5-7 years later (as far out as 2015!). That means for the most part that retro is out, which is good for Bob Lutz, who dislikes such design to begin with. GM does not want another T-bird or new Beetle, as their sales do not hold up well over time. Initially in the development process, Cadillac’s Sigma platform was considered the leading architecture for which to base the new Camaro. Several issues however came up with this choice, the first one of which being the cost of the Cadillac platform which was not designed with Chevrolet prices in mind. Secondly, the Sigma platform has a very high cowl (commonly called firewall) height that was made as a concession for the Cadillac SRX Crossover. This however is not ideal for a low slung sports coupe and would be very expensive to impossible to correct. This realization occurred at about the same point GM discovered Holden. In importing the GTO, GM realized that Holden had expertise and efficiency in designing affordable rear wheel drive cars that they could only wish to have. When they signed a 3-year agreement with Holden to build the GTO, they also had an eye on the future, and an American made GTO. It seems Holden was already developing a successor to the V-chassis that the Monaro, GTO, and Commodore are all built on dubbed VE. The VE chassis (as Holden calls it) is sort of a hybrid Sigma/V-car design with most of the Sigma’s structure mated to V-Car suspension elements. This new design is being engineered to be fully compliant with US laws and will be built in one or two US factories beginning 2005-2006. It is Holden’s manufacturing system which allows for several cars to be built in one factory that is the cornerstone to GM’s plans. Currently they build 20 variants of the V-car in one factory down under. This setup GM hopes in the US will allow for a Buick to build say a $45,000 Lexus fighting sedan on the same line a $20,000 V6 Chevy Camaro. The US version of the VE chassis is currently being called Sigma-Lite or Sigma-Mass among those in the know, however GM has yet to give it an official name. The chassis debuted just this week as the Opel Insignia concept, proving how far it is along in development. The VE will also underpin the next GTO which will be made in the US in 2007. This new VE-based GTO is said to be lower, wider, and more aggressive than the current V-car based version according to those who have seen it. Expect the new GTO to be more identifiable as a GTO, while being a fully modern (non-retro) design. I believe the Insignia concept shows the low slung rounded look that will be the signature of this platform.
Now what does all this mean for the Camaro? Well since it was decided that the GTO would be redesigned and built stateside, Chevy has been in the game developing a coupe for themselves as a counterpart. Common notion was that this car would be a Chevelle, since it has historically been the GTO’s platform sibling. This speculation was recently fired by the fact that Chevy recently trademarked the Chevelle name again. In fact, for a few months there were questions in GM concerning what the new Chevy coupe would be called as some wanted it to be a Monte Carlo, some a Chevelle, and the majority wanted a Camaro. GMI has learned that the Chevelle rumors really never had any muscle behind them, especially after GM was roasted alive by GTO enthusiasts over the 2004 car, Chevrolet has become worried about getting the same reception over a reborn Chevelle. Cementing the name of the new Chevrolet coupe was ironically the Mustang concept at the 2004 NAIAS. Upon first site it gave Bob Lutz a case of the “I wants”, and pretty much cemented that any coupe that comes from Chevrolet will be have to first be a Camaro.
Its also noteworthy that we’ve learned that the new Camaro will not be the same size as the GTO, as the highly flexible chassis allows for different proportions among car models. Think of it as a GTO on a diet with some dimensional excesses removed. Our sources assure us that no one will mistake a Camaro for a GTO both in size or appearance. This new 5th Gen Camaro is currently on a timeline for a 2007 model year introduction, provided that no unexpected obstacles fall in it’s path. GM’s maze of new model concept approvals is staggering, and the new car does not have the final stamp quite yet. However it should be noted that at this point neither does the 2007 GTO, and that this is normal in the approval process for vehicles this far out. This final approval by GM’s Product Planning Board does not occur until the car is within about two years of going into production. In short, if the 2007 GTO becomes reality (which we all know will happen), then a 2007 Camaro almost certainly will to.
GM was quite proud of the fact that the Camaro was the fastest pony car during it’s final years and is willing to grow to great lengths to ensure it picks up where it left off. GM can match the Ford Mustang step for step horsepower wise with it’s superior powertrain unit. GM’s engines are cheaper and make more HP/Dollar than their respective Ford units despite the false generally held notion they are low tech. Power will likely come in three flavors, base V6, medium V8, and high end V8. The base V6 will likely be a high-value 3.5L (200HP) or 3.9L (230HP) engine. Expect GM to match the Mustang in V6 performance, but not exceed it. It is important that GM save costs on the V6 Camaro as it will likely be among the cheapest cars built on the whole Sigma-Lite platform. Though V6 buyers care about performance, cost and value seem to take more precedence in this segment. As much as people would like a 3.6L 255 HP high feature V6, it’s not likely due to its much increased cost. They do however, plan to offer a bolt on version of the supercharger used on the 285HP 3.5L that will show up in the 2005 Pontiac G6 to the general public through dealers.
Contrary to some rumors, a 4-cylnder is not in the plans as it does not fit the image Chevrolet wants for the new Camaro. For a mid-level V8 expect either a 320 HP 5.3L or a 340HP detuned version of the Corvette’s 6.0L LS2 base engine.The 5.3L is the less likely of the above mentioned engines to get the nod because we are unaware of any plans to certify it for car use, a road the 6.0L is well down. For all intents the 5.7L is dead as the new Corvette will use a 6.0L engine in it’s place. This mid-model is likely to car the Z28 designation which will upset some Z28 enthusiasts, but follows the line with the Camaro’s recent history The top level V8 likely to again be called SS will also most likely be the 6.0L LS2 directly from the base Corvette. This engine making probably 10-20 HP less than in Corvette trim will make in the area of 390HP. The decision to use the SS designation follows GM recent trend of using the designation of the top performing car for each model. The car will also probably have some kind of affiliation with GM Performance Division. It is well known that Holden is designing it’s new VE cars to use 6 speed automatic transmissions, making them an obvious choice for the SS 5th Gen Camaro. The 6-speed automatic is actually simpler and cheaper to manufacture than a 5 speed design. There are rumors that team Corvette badly wants a paddle-shift setup to come from this design, but is exploring all options. This new transmission will be made at GM’s Willow Run plant that currently makes the 4L80-E and 4T80E transmissions. Four or Five Speed Autos will be used in lesser models. There will also be a 6-speed manual offered for those who wish to shift on their own.
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Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
The rest of that article...
On the outside the new Camaro will be lower and more seductive than the current GTO. It will also feature styling elements from the SS Concept of this year. People familiar with the new car claim it has a chrome bar concurrent of newer Chevrolets, however that element is very much in limbo. Naturally, the interior will be fully modern keeping in line with the GM’s recent achievements. Interiors have been a hot topic on the auto scene the last few years, and GM understands that the Camaro needs to hit a homerun to succeed. Ergonomics will be inherently better that the 4th Gen cars simply due to the better design of the new chassis. Basic features debuting on cars such as the 2004 Malibu are sure to be considered for the new car, such as remote start, Displacement on Demand, and XM and MP3 Capable radios. It is actually cost effective for GM to include such features in the new car because they were already included in the overall architecture design which will be the structure for more expensive cars. The new car will also include ABS and a revised traction control system that will make the Camaro an all weather car. In reality anything is possible, because Sigma –Lite will be so widely used, pretty much all of GM’s parts bin of options will be engineered to work with it, making the cost to include them in a Camaro negligible, What all of this means is that the Camaro will receive levels of options and refinements that was never imaginable, because it rides on a platform designed to for cars that cost much more. Things such as roll up windows and manual locks will not even be considered because it is cheaper to just include the power options than do the engineering to include manual options. Higher end versions may include features such as On-Star that are highly profitable and compact enough to not hurt performance. If GM thinks that people will pay for it, GM will likely include it. This is great for buyers of the top level Camaro will get much more for their money than they did with the 4th Generation. Speaking of price, expect GM to price the Camaro similar to the 4th Generation Camaro, slightly more than a Mustang of comparable price.
If Ford decided to chase the Corvette with a 500HP Cobra, don’t expect a Camaro to chase it. GM feels that the Corvette will do a good enough job of disposing with the challenge. The price spread could likely run from about $20,000 to $37,000+ (In 2007 dollars) for a 400 HP fully-loaded Camaro. Considering in 2002 a base V6 Camaro started at $19,000, this is not much of a price increase. GM thinks it can sell a 110,000 units a year at this pricing through tapping such markets as past buyers, well off twenty and thirty something males, buyers put off by the retro Mustang, and in general anyone looking for amazing performance at a Chevrolet price. GM has committed itself to making the Camaro not only faster and better than the Mustang, but quite possibly on of the best performers in it’s price range.
Though this article is a representation of the current state of the new Camaro to the best of our knowledge, please remember the car is three years from hitting showrroms and some details may change. When the wraps come off the 2007 Camaro it will bring an end to what has been a classic struggle within GM to keep one of it’s classic nameplates viable in an ever changing market. Though there have been many people pushing for this new car within GM at various levels for the last 7 years, few on the outside will ever understand the hard work and struggle that went into bringing a new car to light. However, Rest assured however, the new car is one that will be worthy of the Camaro name, and more importantly, one that people will buy!
On the outside the new Camaro will be lower and more seductive than the current GTO. It will also feature styling elements from the SS Concept of this year. People familiar with the new car claim it has a chrome bar concurrent of newer Chevrolets, however that element is very much in limbo. Naturally, the interior will be fully modern keeping in line with the GM’s recent achievements. Interiors have been a hot topic on the auto scene the last few years, and GM understands that the Camaro needs to hit a homerun to succeed. Ergonomics will be inherently better that the 4th Gen cars simply due to the better design of the new chassis. Basic features debuting on cars such as the 2004 Malibu are sure to be considered for the new car, such as remote start, Displacement on Demand, and XM and MP3 Capable radios. It is actually cost effective for GM to include such features in the new car because they were already included in the overall architecture design which will be the structure for more expensive cars. The new car will also include ABS and a revised traction control system that will make the Camaro an all weather car. In reality anything is possible, because Sigma –Lite will be so widely used, pretty much all of GM’s parts bin of options will be engineered to work with it, making the cost to include them in a Camaro negligible, What all of this means is that the Camaro will receive levels of options and refinements that was never imaginable, because it rides on a platform designed to for cars that cost much more. Things such as roll up windows and manual locks will not even be considered because it is cheaper to just include the power options than do the engineering to include manual options. Higher end versions may include features such as On-Star that are highly profitable and compact enough to not hurt performance. If GM thinks that people will pay for it, GM will likely include it. This is great for buyers of the top level Camaro will get much more for their money than they did with the 4th Generation. Speaking of price, expect GM to price the Camaro similar to the 4th Generation Camaro, slightly more than a Mustang of comparable price.
If Ford decided to chase the Corvette with a 500HP Cobra, don’t expect a Camaro to chase it. GM feels that the Corvette will do a good enough job of disposing with the challenge. The price spread could likely run from about $20,000 to $37,000+ (In 2007 dollars) for a 400 HP fully-loaded Camaro. Considering in 2002 a base V6 Camaro started at $19,000, this is not much of a price increase. GM thinks it can sell a 110,000 units a year at this pricing through tapping such markets as past buyers, well off twenty and thirty something males, buyers put off by the retro Mustang, and in general anyone looking for amazing performance at a Chevrolet price. GM has committed itself to making the Camaro not only faster and better than the Mustang, but quite possibly on of the best performers in it’s price range.
Though this article is a representation of the current state of the new Camaro to the best of our knowledge, please remember the car is three years from hitting showrroms and some details may change. When the wraps come off the 2007 Camaro it will bring an end to what has been a classic struggle within GM to keep one of it’s classic nameplates viable in an ever changing market. Though there have been many people pushing for this new car within GM at various levels for the last 7 years, few on the outside will ever understand the hard work and struggle that went into bringing a new car to light. However, Rest assured however, the new car is one that will be worthy of the Camaro name, and more importantly, one that people will buy!
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From: Detroit, MI
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From: The land of ice and snow.
Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
Charlie. On the subject of you being out there... thankyou for the service to your country.
On the subject of the cars though, the reason we are on this 5th Gen forum is because we don't think that small FWD 4 cylinder cars are the only future. V8s can be made to be economical on the right platform (i.e. not heavy SUVs or trucks) and even now are not that bad - my ~ 360 HP crank C5 Corvette gets only 2mpg less than my grocery getter 150 HP vtec 98 Honda Accord 4 cylinder in the exact same mixed driving that constitutes my weekly commute, i.e. 25 vs 27 mpg. "New" technology like cyclinder deactivation and direct injection is already comming to mainstream v8 cars (way too late I must say).
So there you have it. No midlife crisis - I'm 35 - hardly midlife (I hope!). For myself and many thosaunds of others, something that has RWD, a powerful V8, muscular styling, get's decent gas milage (more is always better, and alternative fuels like hydrogen, perhaps gained by application of nuclear power are surely in the future 2 or 3 of decades from now), passes the world's strictest emissions standards and is blast to drive at the track or when out cruising... this is what fits the bill.
GM certainly has *latent* the ability to create a new car that does all this at a reasonable price. If they can overcome their current struggles, we may yet see it. At least that's what I keep telling myself.... while I keep telling myself the SVT GT500 is still a pesky Ferd.
Please don't take the 'under a rock thing too seriously' - it was meant in jest (hence the smiley) and no-one here could know it might have a notion of reality attached to it.
On the subject of the cars though, the reason we are on this 5th Gen forum is because we don't think that small FWD 4 cylinder cars are the only future. V8s can be made to be economical on the right platform (i.e. not heavy SUVs or trucks) and even now are not that bad - my ~ 360 HP crank C5 Corvette gets only 2mpg less than my grocery getter 150 HP vtec 98 Honda Accord 4 cylinder in the exact same mixed driving that constitutes my weekly commute, i.e. 25 vs 27 mpg. "New" technology like cyclinder deactivation and direct injection is already comming to mainstream v8 cars (way too late I must say).
So there you have it. No midlife crisis - I'm 35 - hardly midlife (I hope!)
. For myself and many thosaunds of others, something that has RWD, a powerful V8, muscular styling, get's decent gas milage (more is always better, and alternative fuels like hydrogen, perhaps gained by application of nuclear power are surely in the future 2 or 3 of decades from now), passes the world's strictest emissions standards and is blast to drive at the track or when out cruising... this is what fits the bill. GM certainly has *latent* the ability to create a new car that does all this at a reasonable price. If they can overcome their current struggles, we may yet see it. At least that's what I keep telling myself.... while I keep telling myself the SVT GT500 is still a pesky Ferd
.Please don't take the 'under a rock thing too seriously' - it was meant in jest (hence the smiley) and no-one here could know it might have a notion of reality attached to it
.
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Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
Originally Posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
That looks like a GuionM post/article... 
And FWIW, the reason the tuner crowd has turned towards fwd 4 cylinder imports is because of their low cost of ownership which includes purchase price for a used car, insurance, fuel mileage and ease of hopping up the performance. This is much like what happened with the original hot rods in the 40's and 50's.
Still, if and when GM brings the Camaro off hiatus, it is not going to be geared towards that group of buyers. Afterall, they won't be able to afford it. Let's be honest here, the majority of new Camaro buyers, at least those buying a "performance" version (please let's not quibble over the whether that its a Z28 or SS at this point) are going to be in their mid 30's up to 50's. A few people under 30 who can afford it, will buy it, but for the most part, GM won't be targeting that age group with the new Camaro. The get the Cobalt, which has a Supercharged SS version slated towards them.
Additionally I don't think fuel efficiency is still an issue, what with Displacement-On-Demand on the horizon (a new Camaro would certainly come with it standard), and the fact that Americans have shown they still want their big gas guzzling SUV's. Fact is, I live in the SF Bay Area where gas prices are nearing (an in some places exceeding) $3/gal; and I'd estimate that almost 2/3rds of the vehicles I see on the road daily during my commute are V8 powered RWD SUV's.
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Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
1. I would like to think everyone is appreciative of your service, however I too believe it doesn't mean everyone must also agree with you. 2. IMHO, the fact that the 4th gens didn't, and don't sell well, has more to do with the fact that, alot of ppl out there (myself not included obviously) do not care for them, and less to do with ppl not wanting muscle. Take your pick there has been a whole host of complaints. I guess most are valid complaints, for me though I still like them and think they are a bargain, and great cars, flaws and all. I would hope that the guys in charge are paying attention, because IMHO fixing these complaints are what will make it a great success. Just look at Mustang success. 3. I certainly don't like diggin' out any of my vehicles any more ( also in my mid 30's, and hope its not midlife 
) I guess I should have used a . I was just tryin' to lightheartedly say ppl still want a cool V8 RWD car as you've mentioned, and yes they still care about mpg. IMO, that fuel saving DoD...Um ..I mean... mds has convinced many a wife to allow their hubbies a taste of this midlife crisis ala DCx. The price of being #1 I guess! Develope a pioneering technology and let someone else put it out first. 
So their first attemps in the 80's weren't a great success! Nothing ventured nothing gained right! I do believe that petroleum will be used for a while yet, so I think DoD is a blessing in disguise! 4. I bet if we added up everyones 2 cents on a possible 5th gen we would really have something there. Prolly nuff ta ba 1...Woo..Hoo! 
) I guess I should have used a . I was just tryin' to lightheartedly say ppl still want a cool V8 RWD car as you've mentioned, and yes they still care about mpg. IMO, that fuel saving DoD...Um ..I mean... mds has convinced many a wife to allow their hubbies a taste of this midlife crisis ala DCx. The price of being #1 I guess! Develope a pioneering technology and let someone else put it out first. So their first attemps in the 80's weren't a great success! Nothing ventured nothing gained right! I do believe that petroleum will be used for a while yet, so I think DoD is a blessing in disguise! 4. I bet if we added up everyones 2 cents on a possible 5th gen we would really have something there. Prolly nuff ta ba 1...Woo..Hoo!
Last edited by SCNGENNFTHGEN; Apr 12, 2005 at 03:47 PM.
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Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
Originally Posted by jg95z28
And FWIW, the reason the tuner crowd has turned towards fwd 4 cylinder imports is because of their low cost of ownership which includes purchase price for a used car, insurance, fuel mileage and ease of hopping up the performance. This is much like what happened with the original hot rods in the 40's and 50's.
Which oddly enough is a large part of the Mustang's popularity as well...
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Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
Damn 3 bucks a gal., I feel for you bro, its about 2.15 or so here for the 93 octane last I looked. I do agree on the tuner crowd 4 cyl. thing that is where cheap performance is right now. It ain't the 40's and 50's no more, and unfortunately V8 RWD ain't cheap no more! I have to respect what some are doing with only 4 holes, but still its not going to do it for me as well as alot of others. That's why I don't rip the Cobalt SS, bout time GM got in on it, now they can focus more on some real Muscle! Oh and yes the Mustang does have a very attractive price for what you get, which is obvious from the way they are selling.
Oh and yes the Mustang does have a very attractive price for what you get, which is obvious from the way they are selling.
Last edited by SCNGENNFTHGEN; Apr 12, 2005 at 03:46 PM.
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Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
i pay 41 every month for 4 months=174 for 6 months of coverage through geico for my 99 Z28....and I have 3 cars 2002 jeep grand cherokee 287; 97 cavalier 189........Ive owned 6 f-bodies since ive gotten out of HS and plan on getting the new Camaro when it comes out in 07 or 08. IF not Im still planning on dropping a LS2 Engine in mine anyway...2.45 a gal
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From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Re: Camaro guys 2 cents on a 5th gen!
This Camaro guy's 2-cents is: I believe the reason the Truck/SUV market is doing so well is the V8/RWD that is lacking until recently in automobiles. Not just High Output specialty cars but Wagons, Vans, Luxo's etc, they miss the QUIET, SMOOTH, predictable power the V8/rwd delivers. And the Mustang sales speak for themselves. as do the Magnum's, 300C's etc...
There IS a BIG hole in the GM line-up left by the pony siblings that'll hopefully be filled before I retire. I think people of 20years ago would've killed for a 21+mpg pony car, NOW is the perfect time for such a car!
(Oh, I don't care if it hits $3.00/GALLON, well I care but, I WON'T GIVE UP MY V8's, anytime soon!)
as do the Magnum's, 300C's etc...There IS a BIG hole in the GM line-up left by the pony siblings that'll hopefully be filled before I retire.
I think people of 20years ago would've killed for a 21+mpg pony car, NOW is the perfect time for such a car!(Oh, I don't care if it hits $3.00/GALLON, well I care but, I WON'T GIVE UP MY V8's, anytime soon!)
Last edited by 90rocz; Apr 12, 2005 at 04:19 PM.