PacerX

If the Z28 isn't capped, you're going to end up paying $6,000-$9,000 more for it and it's gonna have "SS" on the side of it. Z28 MUST be content limited to allow you to buy an inexpensive 1LE, V8 car.

Z06's ARE NOT stripped cars. Matter of fact, they're chock-full of all kinds of techno-wizardry. Not only are they more expensive than base Corvettes, they tend to have lots of content - and not just in the realm of "go fast" bits:

Available dual color leather.
Standard HUD.
Etc...



As much as I admire the idea, it doesn't work - and it's been proven not to work. Camaro can no longer afford to built to only appeal to limited market segments. 100,000 cars need to be built and sold - and that means the appeal has to broaden at every level. What I've tried to do is allow a Z28 buyer to pick and choose the performance options that are most important - big powerful V8, manual or automatic transmission, multiple wheel and tire combinations, a 1LE handling package, etc... and keep the costs down.

I've done this in the most reasonable manner I think I can, especially in light of the fact that there is a schizophrenia involved with Z28 fans...

Z28 Guys: "It's gotta be hella fast, and cheap"

GM: "Well, we can do that, but there are going to be some sacrifices in content because of cost, and I still need a higher line car then to make money on options and keep the car line alive."

Z28 Guys: "Well, as long as the Z28 is the fastest and best handling."

GM: "I can't do that. The guy who shells out $9,000 more for his SS is entitled to get some performance improvement for it, and if he doesn't get it no one is going to buy it so I end up killing off my own market."

Z28 Guys: "Z28 has still gotta be the fastest."

GM: "Look, I have to make money, and making money means that I need to be able to sell higher content vehicles. The buyers of higher content vehicles not only expect amenities, but they expect better performance too. If you want a hella-fast, great handling car for not too much money I can build you one, BUT I'm not going to tell somebody who is willing to shell out a LOT more money he can't have a faster and better handling car."

Z28 Guys: "Well, how about a really rare, REALLY ARCANE, option callout that nobody but us insiders and Camaro purists know about - and we get it for dirt cheap - but the guys who shell out a LOT more money for a car can't have it."

GM: "Somebody explain to me slowly why I have any interest whatsoever in limiting my own market, and my profits at the same time."


Honestly, I think the core of the issue here is no longer a rational argument - and I say this with all respect:

You can't have it both ways. Either you are going to accept that a higher-line car - WHATEVER it is called - is going to be required to be a better performer BECAUSE IT IS MORE EXPENSIVE and then strive to make the lower line, still V8 powered, less expensive car the best it can be or you're not.

RiceEating5.0

I agree with Pacer, the more expensive car has got to be the faster one (at least in the eyes of the consumer). Either make the z28 the most expensive model or leave that title to the SS. Giving a 25k z28 all the performance goodies and limiting the loaded 35k SS to something "lesser" would be stupid. Camaro's are performance cars, and like all other performance cars, the top model is supposed to be the best handler, braker, and accelerator.

With the performance gap between the 4th gen SS and z28 being as slim as it is, i'm surprised anyone even bought an SS. The extra price and the extra performance (or lack there of) wasn't justified. A 5th gen needs to address this issue. Give the more expensive car a different look to make it stick out more, a larger motor, a considerable bumb in power and Tq, as well as larger brakes, and better suspension. That is if GM is to charge a premium for this "top" model. Only then would the heft price difference be justified.

Z284ever

Pacer, I believe that we are approaching this issue from slightly different orientations.

My perception is, that you are basing this model line-up strictly on a sliding cost scale. Base at the bottom, "Grand Touring" and Z/28 switching back and forth in the middle, and way on top SS.

Does each model have to appeal to a certain segment, simply catagorized by a price point? Well to a certain extent...sure. But I'm not too sure if Camaro needs to be enslaved by it.

BTW...I like this one.......


Except I'm not expecting it to be "dirt cheap". And I bet most of the guys willing to shell out a LOT more money wouldn't "want" it anyway. If they are so inclined.....they'd shell out for a Z06.

But while we're on the subject of "shelling out"....the precedent has already been set. On the last gen...5-10,000 buyers per year happily shelled out thousands more ...for not much more performance. Why would we expect that to change?

They want what you've previously described. 8-way and heated seats, convertible and T-Tops. On Star. Etc. Basically all the expensive stuff...or rather fluff I don't want in my Z/28 Camaro.

We need a 5th gen that will make as many people as possible fall in love with Camaro again. To me...that means aiming specific models at specific groups. To me, that means getting certain people so passionate about the the Camaro model they're interested in, that nothing could stop them from buying it....and not simply purchasing based on price caps alone. There is nothing wrong with having a niche player...in fact, I think it's an advantage.

I think we're doing a good job here, with our Berlinetta type car. I think such a car....if well executed...could put a 20-30 thousand unit dent in the projected 100,000 per year Camaro production.
Maybe SS could reach another 15-20 thousand units. The base car had better be good for 50,000 units.

Can you please spare 10-15,000 properly done Z/28's for some war weary enthusiasts who really, really want a car?

It's not too much to ask.

Doug Harden

.....I'll trade you leather, HUD, On-Star, etc......for a more powerful engine, better brakes, better shocks & tires......

IOW, make them similar in price, but trade the luxury items for performance items?

cmc

Look at BMW and Lexus (IS300) for good non-leather seat ideas as far as that goes.

PacerX

Yep. Guess how GM will approach it?


It does. The car overall will have to be a terrific performance platform, but then the trick is covering the bases Camaro usually covers (to stay true to the brand) while expanding in two specific areas - desireable base cars and a moderately priced touring car with lots of amenities (Berlinetta/LT/GT/RS etc...). Z28 and SS can cover the fire-breathing "kill em all and let Ford sort 'em out" performers. One at the middle end of the price scale, the other at the top, just under Corvette.




I love my Camaro. It was, bar none, the fastest car I could afford at the time, AND gave me 95% of a Corvette's performance for ~2/3's the price (sticker said $33,000). What a deal!



Even I wish I got more. Now, I did get a better handling, better braking, quicker car than a Z28. Was it worth the $8,000 more? Yeah, in the end it was - BUT it could have been more at that price point, and we all know it. GM's mission is to give us that little bit more AND cover the Z28 at the same time at a ~$26,000 price point.



How's this sound?

350-375hp V8.
6 speed manual or 5 speed automatic.
2+2 coupe, T-top, and convertible available.
Available 1LE performance package (REAL handling components and big brakes).
17" wheels all the way around.
Available high performance 275/40/ZR17 tires.
Class leading speed, handling and braking.
Aggressive looks.
A functional, stylish, but not amenity laden interior.
Reasonable weight.
$25,500-$28,500 (depending on options, convertibles more).

I think that describes what a Z28 ought to be to a "T", and doesn't involve any other trim levels or packages at all.

steves

I don't think I made my point before.
If GM's track record stays the same there will be 2 different motors available which means 1 V6 and 1 V8, period. A third motor will be a blessing.
The SS was a farmed out trim package on top of the 4th gen Z28. So IMHO it is not worthy to carry the flag as top model for the Camaro, period. The 4th gen SS was riding on the coat tails of the popular 94-96 Impala SS. A rebaged taxi cab. Granted the SS made some more power but you needed the extra power to get those 17's moving. Then you include the extra drag/weight that semi-fuctional scoop and wing had and the power difference = 0. I never ever seen an SS pull better numbers than a Z28. I just think you SS guy's are tired of getting spanked thats why you want the Z28 to be the weaker car. If anyone has any numbers showing an 4th gen SS being faster than a 4th gen Z28 please post and I'll apologize for my rudeness.
If Chevy did the 4th gen right the only thing the Z28 needed was the 1LE, 17's (the ZR1 type)and a hurst as standard equipment (it would have been a $26,000 car). You could keep the ugly 10 spoke minivan wheels, scoop and wing on the SS.
A Z06ish Z28 will not cost much, IMO it needs it's own wheels, good seats, an adjustable 1LE type suspension and big brakes, and if it has all the goodies similar to the Z06 and it was done right I wouldn't care if it was the most expensive Camaro. The Z28 should also be a manual only. NO ONE complains that the Z06 is available this way, and the Z06 is 1/3 of the Corvette production.

Just to make it clear:

SS: ALL SHOW
Z28: ALL GO

PacerX

Won't happen. You gotta pay to play bro. GM doesn't do this stuff for free - if you want the top performing car, you're gonna pay for the top performing car.

Z284ever

Ok....if they rate them like the LS1.

Save the auto for other Camaros

T-tops and convertible tops water down the formula

1LE should be the basis of a Z/28 package......and make those wheels 18's....we'll need 'em for brake clearance.

Check.

Check

Check

Check.


Sure....but I'd be willing to even pay more, to get it right.



See PX......we're sooooooooooo close!

PacerX

Lemme condense this whole thing down...

General Motors is in the business of making money. General Motors made more money on SS cars than Z28 because of the higher option content.

steves wants a free ride.

He wants the top performing car without paying for it.

Isn't going to happen, and honestly your issue is more centered around the fact that the SS WAS the top performing car and that hurt some feeling that you have about Z28s.

I've seen MANY MANY of these cars dyno, and have yet to see a stock Z28 throw up higher numbers than an exhaust-equipped SS, let alone one with the SLP lid that appeared in 2002.

So, pick your poison. Either let the Z28 move up CONSIDERABLY in price point or deal with the fact that there WILL be a better performing, flagship car above it.

PacerX

I'm betting they will.



Can't. Lots of folks who want a Z28 want an automatic.



T-tops and convertibles make LOTS of money. You're going to have to accept them.



It'll be AVAILABLE - but you're gonna pay for it. 18's are OK, but that means I get to dump one of the extra 17" wheel and tire packages.



How much more? And be real here. $6,000? $9,000?



Yep. Not too far now.

Z284ever

OK PX, here's my final offer before I go across the street and buy a BOSS Mustang (j/k)............

How about this,

.......the 1LE becomes a comprehensive performance package that includes big wheels, good tires, big brakes, suspension, seats ...the whole nine yards...for afew extra thou. But it's only available on a six speed coupe. AND.........instead of calling it the 1LE we'll......just for me.....call it Z/28.

The "low line" Z/28 that you've previously described ...simply becomes a base V8 Camaro.

I'm happy, you're happy, everyone's happy....and I'm pulling out my check book as we speak. You've just made a sale....and maybe...just maybe...... I'll buy a Berlinetta for a daily driver too.

steves

Steves doesn't want a free ride. Steves wants a Z28 worthy of the name. I really don't care how much it costs just as long as the Z28 ends up being what I want. Not to bust ***** but as soon as I see some numbers I will still stand behind my statement that the 4th gen Z28 is faster than a 4th gen SS. Regardless of the extra 10 -20 hp difference.
You still don't get the point:
Z28 all the performance goodies only regardless of price.
SS all the performance goodies and all the other fluff.

Here let me break it down.

Z28: 400 hp six spd manual only, good seats (recaro), good shifter, some lightweight Z28 specific wheels, a 1LE type adjustable suspension, brembo brakes and hud.

SS: All of the above except for the supension/brakes (this would offset the price of the two models). SS specific wheels, avail 5spd auto, t-top/targa, rag top, leather, a good sound system, SS specific exhaust (for that higher hp rating your looking for) and your semi functional hood scoop (now your at your 420hp rating).

IMO they should be priced about the same. Just remember no one here ever expected the Z28 to cost under 30K. If it's done right I'd even pay 40K for a Z28. Any more than that and I'll take my check book to the BMW dealership and get an M3.

Z284ever

I can't honestly answer that. I guess it all depends on what I'd get.

But I'll tell you one thing for sure.......

I'm not the target market for a $9,000 wheel, fake hood scoop and nifty numbered floor mats package.

Z28Wilson

I'm understanding the concept of a Z06-style Z28, I've just never been sure it makes sense. You have to remember that Camaro is a volume car, NOT comparable to Corvette, and in being a volume car it is extremely risky business to start limiting packages down to something so focused on performance and nothing else. Like PacerX has been saying, people want options. The more the merrier. And guess what? Companies love selling cars with options. Makes them a ton of money. That's a win-win for everyone there. So why am I bothering to offer a 6-speed only, hardtop only, manual and cloth seat only model in a line that is supposed to sell in volumes? Mustang Cobra is the fastest of the Mustangs...and yes, it still can be had with leather, power everything and with a convertible roof.