C&D does a 2+2 coupe shootout....minus Camaro
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From: Chicagoland IL
C&D does a 2+2 coupe shootout....minus Camaro
Car and Driver did a shootout between Mustang Cobra, G35 Coupe and Mazda RX8. C&D had high praise for all of them.....but the RX8 came out on top.
It's strange to see such a shootout with no Camaro.
I wonder how a new Camaro would have fared?
I wonder if GM has taken note that Camaro's competitors have raised the bar?
It's strange to see such a shootout with no Camaro.
I wonder how a new Camaro would have fared?
I wonder if GM has taken note that Camaro's competitors have raised the bar?
Last edited by Z284ever; Mar 9, 2003 at 02:11 PM.
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From: The Golden State
Just got the issue yesterday. Even though the Cobra came out on the bottom, they really had nothing but praise for the car except for the cheap looking interior.
Everything else was nothing but praise!
Everything else was nothing but praise!
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Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,873
From: South Jersey
If there were a 5th Gen Z28 designed like it should to be, it would have won due to is nimble 3200lb curb weight, compact dimensions, agile handling, 340HP V8, simple yet top quality interior and as tested price of $27,421 (due to removable roof panel). It would have been a close contest, but the pure, clean styling, usability of the hatchback, and beautiful wheels would have given it the win....uh...what? Sorry. I was daydreaming again.
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From: Dollars, Taxes
Originally posted by WERM
If there were a 5th Gen Z28 designed like it should to be, it would have won due to is nimble 3200lb curb weight, compact dimensions, agile handling, 340HP V8, simple yet top quality interior and as tested price of $27,421 (due to removable roof panel). It would have been a close contest, but the pure, clean styling, usability of the hatchback, and beautiful wheels would have given it the win....uh...what? Sorry. I was daydreaming again.
If there were a 5th Gen Z28 designed like it should to be, it would have won due to is nimble 3200lb curb weight, compact dimensions, agile handling, 340HP V8, simple yet top quality interior and as tested price of $27,421 (due to removable roof panel). It would have been a close contest, but the pure, clean styling, usability of the hatchback, and beautiful wheels would have given it the win....uh...what? Sorry. I was daydreaming again.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by WERM
If there were a 5th Gen Z28 designed like it should to be, it would have won due to is nimble 3200lb curb weight, compact dimensions, agile handling, 340HP V8, simple yet top quality interior and as tested price of $27,421 (due to removable roof panel). It would have been a close contest, but the pure, clean styling, usability of the hatchback, and beautiful wheels would have given it the win....uh...what? Sorry. I was daydreaming again.
If there were a 5th Gen Z28 designed like it should to be, it would have won due to is nimble 3200lb curb weight, compact dimensions, agile handling, 340HP V8, simple yet top quality interior and as tested price of $27,421 (due to removable roof panel). It would have been a close contest, but the pure, clean styling, usability of the hatchback, and beautiful wheels would have given it the win....uh...what? Sorry. I was daydreaming again.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Guys, you're giving C&D far too much credit.
The commentary on the 405hp 5th gen would have been something like:
"Weighing in at 3300 lbs, and powered by the 405hp LS6 motor, the Camaro SS came back from the dead by miracle for this comparison session.
Reborn with an IRS, shorter overhangs and a slightly more upright stance, the 5th generation Camaro has addressed many of the issues that the 4th generation car languished under for nearly 10 years while GM frittered away a franchise that at one time ruled the roost...
The new Camaro, a RWD/front engine coupe, no longer carries the weight penalty of being a 20 year old platform band-aided to comply with changing FMVSS demands and customer wishes.
A true clean sheet design (apart from the stunningly effective powertrain), the Camaro vaulted back from the dead with the following mechanical features:
- Upgraded clutch and clutch hydraulics.
- An upgraded T56 with stouter syncronizers and shift forks no longer made from silly putty.
- A conversion to IRS, utilizing the same IRS found in the Holden cars. This has finally addressed the issues with the "glass jaw" 10 bolt live axles that plauged high-power Camaros for years.
- The 405hp LS6 in SS cars (which matches the power of the current base Corvettes, while the mighty Z06 has moved up to a 500hp, 6.4 liter LS7).
- In Z28's, the LS1 carries forward in 345hp trim. And base Camaros recieve a 250hp high-feature V6.
- Bigger brakes are specified all the way around.
- Z28 and SS Camaros have the 1LE suspension package available now for the road racers out there, with low-weight Z28's being a favorite of many in the turns.
- Improved interior packaging, with no converter hump and a slightly more upright seating position...
In short, Camaro is packaged better, stiffer, and a better handling car, combined with enough power to put down any car in this comparision.
Sure the Camaro is the fastest car here, using a considerable weight advantage to reel in the Cobra, and it certainly spanked the others on the road course, but the color just didn't seem right to us. Besides, the underhood plastic materials looked cheap and were all black.
Once again, since we know nothing whatsoever about plastics, we applaud the Japanese manufacturers for their smart selection of dark gray for electrical connectors instead of boring black - the higher quality denoted by the dark gray color underhood electrical connectors made all the difference in this comparo.
So, in the end, if you want high color quality underhood plastics, buy an RX8. We're sure that you as the customer will be satified that the Camaro SS that just blew you clean off the road has those cheap, black electrical connectors and you don't."
The commentary on the 405hp 5th gen would have been something like:
"Weighing in at 3300 lbs, and powered by the 405hp LS6 motor, the Camaro SS came back from the dead by miracle for this comparison session.
Reborn with an IRS, shorter overhangs and a slightly more upright stance, the 5th generation Camaro has addressed many of the issues that the 4th generation car languished under for nearly 10 years while GM frittered away a franchise that at one time ruled the roost...
The new Camaro, a RWD/front engine coupe, no longer carries the weight penalty of being a 20 year old platform band-aided to comply with changing FMVSS demands and customer wishes.
A true clean sheet design (apart from the stunningly effective powertrain), the Camaro vaulted back from the dead with the following mechanical features:
- Upgraded clutch and clutch hydraulics.
- An upgraded T56 with stouter syncronizers and shift forks no longer made from silly putty.
- A conversion to IRS, utilizing the same IRS found in the Holden cars. This has finally addressed the issues with the "glass jaw" 10 bolt live axles that plauged high-power Camaros for years.
- The 405hp LS6 in SS cars (which matches the power of the current base Corvettes, while the mighty Z06 has moved up to a 500hp, 6.4 liter LS7).
- In Z28's, the LS1 carries forward in 345hp trim. And base Camaros recieve a 250hp high-feature V6.
- Bigger brakes are specified all the way around.
- Z28 and SS Camaros have the 1LE suspension package available now for the road racers out there, with low-weight Z28's being a favorite of many in the turns.
- Improved interior packaging, with no converter hump and a slightly more upright seating position...
In short, Camaro is packaged better, stiffer, and a better handling car, combined with enough power to put down any car in this comparision.
Sure the Camaro is the fastest car here, using a considerable weight advantage to reel in the Cobra, and it certainly spanked the others on the road course, but the color just didn't seem right to us. Besides, the underhood plastic materials looked cheap and were all black.
Once again, since we know nothing whatsoever about plastics, we applaud the Japanese manufacturers for their smart selection of dark gray for electrical connectors instead of boring black - the higher quality denoted by the dark gray color underhood electrical connectors made all the difference in this comparo.
So, in the end, if you want high color quality underhood plastics, buy an RX8. We're sure that you as the customer will be satified that the Camaro SS that just blew you clean off the road has those cheap, black electrical connectors and you don't."
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by PacerX
Guys, you're giving C&D far too much credit.
The commentary on the 405hp 5th gen would have been something like:
"Weighing in at 3300 lbs, and powered by the 405hp LS6 motor, the Camaro SS came back from the dead by miracle for this comparison session.
Reborn with an IRS, shorter overhangs and a slightly more upright stance, the 5th generation Camaro has addressed many of the issues that the 4th generation car languished under for nearly 10 years while GM frittered away a franchise that at one time ruled the roost...
The new Camaro, a RWD/front engine coupe, no longer carries the weight penalty of being a 20 year old platform band-aided to comply with changing FMVSS demands and customer wishes.
A true clean sheet design (apart from the stunningly effective powertrain), the Camaro vaulted back from the dead with the following mechanical features:
- Upgraded clutch and clutch hydraulics.
- An upgraded T56 with stouter syncronizers and shift forks no longer made from silly putty.
- A conversion to IRS, utilizing the same IRS found in the Holden cars. This has finally addressed the issues with the "glass jaw" 10 bolt live axles that plauged high-power Camaros for years.
- The 405hp LS6 in SS cars (which matches the power of the current base Corvettes, while the mighty Z06 has moved up to a 500hp, 6.4 liter LS7).
- In Z28's, the LS1 carries forward in 345hp trim. And base Camaros recieve a 250hp high-feature V6.
- Bigger brakes are specified all the way around.
- Z28 and SS Camaros have the 1LE suspension package available now for the road racers out there, with low-weight Z28's being a favorite of many in the turns.
- Improved interior packaging, with no converter hump and a slightly more upright seating position...
In short, Camaro is packaged better, stiffer, and a better handling car, combined with enough power to put down any car in this comparision.
Sure the Camaro is the fastest car here, using a considerable weight advantage to reel in the Cobra, and it certainly spanked the others on the road course, but the color just didn't seem right to us. Besides, the underhood plastic materials looked cheap and were all black.
Once again, since we know nothing whatsoever about plastics, we applaud the Japanese manufacturers for their smart selection of dark gray for electrical connectors instead of boring black - the higher quality denoted by the dark gray color underhood electrical connectors made all the difference in this comparo.
So, in the end, if you want high color quality underhood plastics, buy an RX8. We're sure that you as the customer will be satified that the Camaro SS that just blew you clean off the road has those cheap, black electrical connectors and you don't."
Guys, you're giving C&D far too much credit.
The commentary on the 405hp 5th gen would have been something like:
"Weighing in at 3300 lbs, and powered by the 405hp LS6 motor, the Camaro SS came back from the dead by miracle for this comparison session.
Reborn with an IRS, shorter overhangs and a slightly more upright stance, the 5th generation Camaro has addressed many of the issues that the 4th generation car languished under for nearly 10 years while GM frittered away a franchise that at one time ruled the roost...
The new Camaro, a RWD/front engine coupe, no longer carries the weight penalty of being a 20 year old platform band-aided to comply with changing FMVSS demands and customer wishes.
A true clean sheet design (apart from the stunningly effective powertrain), the Camaro vaulted back from the dead with the following mechanical features:
- Upgraded clutch and clutch hydraulics.
- An upgraded T56 with stouter syncronizers and shift forks no longer made from silly putty.
- A conversion to IRS, utilizing the same IRS found in the Holden cars. This has finally addressed the issues with the "glass jaw" 10 bolt live axles that plauged high-power Camaros for years.
- The 405hp LS6 in SS cars (which matches the power of the current base Corvettes, while the mighty Z06 has moved up to a 500hp, 6.4 liter LS7).
- In Z28's, the LS1 carries forward in 345hp trim. And base Camaros recieve a 250hp high-feature V6.
- Bigger brakes are specified all the way around.
- Z28 and SS Camaros have the 1LE suspension package available now for the road racers out there, with low-weight Z28's being a favorite of many in the turns.
- Improved interior packaging, with no converter hump and a slightly more upright seating position...
In short, Camaro is packaged better, stiffer, and a better handling car, combined with enough power to put down any car in this comparision.
Sure the Camaro is the fastest car here, using a considerable weight advantage to reel in the Cobra, and it certainly spanked the others on the road course, but the color just didn't seem right to us. Besides, the underhood plastic materials looked cheap and were all black.
Once again, since we know nothing whatsoever about plastics, we applaud the Japanese manufacturers for their smart selection of dark gray for electrical connectors instead of boring black - the higher quality denoted by the dark gray color underhood electrical connectors made all the difference in this comparo.
So, in the end, if you want high color quality underhood plastics, buy an RX8. We're sure that you as the customer will be satified that the Camaro SS that just blew you clean off the road has those cheap, black electrical connectors and you don't."
LOL LOL LOL!!!!
It's true, It's true!
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,022
From: Newhall, CA USA
That review is so spot-on you should be writing for C&D!
Come on, guys, these idiots gave the TOP SPOT to a 4-door heinous monstrosity that nobody with taste would be caught dead in--while a supercharged, 4-cam, IRS, superfast Mustang got bottom billing!
Come on, guys, these idiots gave the TOP SPOT to a 4-door heinous monstrosity that nobody with taste would be caught dead in--while a supercharged, 4-cam, IRS, superfast Mustang got bottom billing!
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
PacerX LOL.
Actually, I've always felt that C&D has given the Camaro a fair shake....and I've been reading that mag forever. The annual Camaro vs Mustang shootouts of the '80 were legendary.....and were quite extensive write ups.
Even when all other magazines completely gave up on the 4th gen......C&D continued to praise it's performance. If you are a Camaro enthusiast, I think you can call C&D your friend.....but they are no pushovers.....and are not afraid to call a spade, a spade.
Over the years, they've given Camaro/Firebird alot of great "press"...and done us enthusiasts the service of pointing out areas for improvement, in ways GM could not ignore.
I have no beef with C&D...I think they do a great job.
Actually, I've always felt that C&D has given the Camaro a fair shake....and I've been reading that mag forever. The annual Camaro vs Mustang shootouts of the '80 were legendary.....and were quite extensive write ups.
Even when all other magazines completely gave up on the 4th gen......C&D continued to praise it's performance. If you are a Camaro enthusiast, I think you can call C&D your friend.....but they are no pushovers.....and are not afraid to call a spade, a spade.
Over the years, they've given Camaro/Firebird alot of great "press"...and done us enthusiasts the service of pointing out areas for improvement, in ways GM could not ignore.
I have no beef with C&D...I think they do a great job.
Last edited by Z284ever; Mar 10, 2003 at 09:43 AM.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by jg95z28
Can the Rx8 even be considered a 2+2 anymore? It's got 4 doors!
Can the Rx8 even be considered a 2+2 anymore? It's got 4 doors!
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Oh boy gents, do I seem a bit jaded?
I saw the comparo on TV, and from the instant they announced it I mentally clicked off in my head what was going to happen.
The Cobra was going to lay waste to the other two cars, especially in the speed department, and then get dinged for being too heavy and having "cheap" interior plastics.
Do you think they know we're on to them yet?
I saw the comparo on TV, and from the instant they announced it I mentally clicked off in my head what was going to happen.
The Cobra was going to lay waste to the other two cars, especially in the speed department, and then get dinged for being too heavy and having "cheap" interior plastics.
Do you think they know we're on to them yet?
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by PacerX
Oh boy gents, do I seem a bit jaded?
I saw the comparo on TV, and from the instant they announced it I mentally clicked off in my head what was going to happen.
The Cobra was going to lay waste to the other two cars, especially in the speed department, and then get dinged for being too heavy and having "cheap" interior plastics.
Do you think they know we're on to them yet?
Oh boy gents, do I seem a bit jaded?
I saw the comparo on TV, and from the instant they announced it I mentally clicked off in my head what was going to happen.
The Cobra was going to lay waste to the other two cars, especially in the speed department, and then get dinged for being too heavy and having "cheap" interior plastics.
Do you think they know we're on to them yet?
I understand the Mustang is very dated compared to 2 new cars, but still....
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Originally posted by Z284ever
Actually, I've always felt that C&D has given the Camaro a fair shake....and I've been reading that mag forever. The annual Camaro vs Mustang shootouts of the '80 were legendary.....and were quite extensive write ups.
Even when all other magazines completely gave up on the 4th gen......C&D continued to praise it's performance. If you are a Camaro enthusiast, I think you can call C&D your friend.....but they are no pushovers.....and are not afraid to call a spade, a spade.
Over the years, they've given Camaro/Firebird alot of great "press"...and done us enthusiasts the service of pointing out areas for improvement, in ways GM could not ignore.
I have no beef with C&D...I think they do a great job.
Actually, I've always felt that C&D has given the Camaro a fair shake....and I've been reading that mag forever. The annual Camaro vs Mustang shootouts of the '80 were legendary.....and were quite extensive write ups.
Even when all other magazines completely gave up on the 4th gen......C&D continued to praise it's performance. If you are a Camaro enthusiast, I think you can call C&D your friend.....but they are no pushovers.....and are not afraid to call a spade, a spade.
Over the years, they've given Camaro/Firebird alot of great "press"...and done us enthusiasts the service of pointing out areas for improvement, in ways GM could not ignore.
I have no beef with C&D...I think they do a great job.
As far as that test goes, you knew Mustang was going to place last. They even commented on how surprised they were that it handled a road course so well considering its weight. So what's the problem? Auto magazines in general are so star-struck by Japanese and German offerings these days it is seriously comical.