Maximum Bob

A while ago in another thread it was brought up that when Cadillac developed the Sigma chassis that it was to be shared with other divisions but that when it was finished Caddy reneged on the deal. This was the 1st I'd heard of it & was wondering if anyone could provide details to this story, especially as to how Caddy could justify withholding the chassis after spending hundreds of millions of GM's dollars on developing it & then having it go only to 2 Caddy's? It must've taken them forever to recoup the cost!

Darth Xed

I have no clue how it was done, but a few points:

1) There were three Cadillacs built off Sigma: CTS, SRX and STS.

2) I honestly think Cadillac SHOULD have it's own platform, or something exclusive to it... including powertrains. You pay a pretty good premium to buy a Cadillac... I dont know if the higher retails is enough to cover the difference or not, though.

3) I just bought my first Cadillac in the 2008 SRX... seeing the new 2010 SRX spyshots, and hearing that it will be smaller, and platform share with at least Saab, and possibly other GM Divisions is honestly disappointing. Cadillac has made such incredible strides... but to keep it in line with the Mercedes and BMW's of the world, you can't share major parts with Saturns and Chevy's, or even Saab's, IMO. That said, DTS shares with Lucerne, the Escalade shares with Tahoe and Yukon. and XLR shares with Corvette (the XLR/Corvette relationship is at least acceptible, though) and they have have varying degrees of success, so what do I know?

Z284ever

Sigma was developed as GM's global RWD architecture. It was to be shared with Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Opel and Holden, even Saab.

In the end Caddy retained exclusive use of it. Politics? Cost? You decide.

97z28/m6

stupid?

guionM

Question's right down my alley.

Short answer is that General Motors got cheap.

You are correct that Sigma was supposed to be used outside Cadillac. The 5th gen Camaro was planned for Sigma. There was a Pontiac GTO being considered for Sigma. Buick was supposed to get a Sigma based sedan. Holden considered Sigma as the basis of the next Commodore. In short, everything that GM considered using the Zeta for, over a decade ago they were considering using Sigma for. Cadillac was supposed to have exclusive rights to the chassis for a period of time, then it would start showing up at other divisions.

Then (in no particular order) GM decided to pull the plug on the Camaro program. Holden opted out and started developing their own chassis that was less costly and had better space efficiency in the rear. The GTO idea died when Camaro did. GM management collectively decided that cars were appliences, and started funneling money into large trucks and SUvs at the expense of cars. Plans to use Sigma in anything outside of Cadillacs was dead before the first Cadillac CTS even hit the showroom. Engineering started on Sigma around 1997, and by 2001 most all other plans that used Sigma were shelved and Holden was starting it's engineering of Zeta.

Couple of years later, most of the models envisioned to be based on Sigma started brething life again under the idea of basing them on the lower cost Zeta from Holden. The production numbers needed to justify production costs were very low compared with Sigma (and most other modern cars) so other divisions wanted in on Zeta. Pontiac and Chevrolet were to get each a large coupe and a sedan. Buick was to get a larger sedan and a sports car. Chevrolet was to get an El Camino. All solid. Then things got crazy. All types of niche vehicles were proposed, eventially to the point of where Bob Lutz had to shut everything down briefly to get everything refocused.


It was decided to build Pontiac's large sedan in Australia till the US Zeta factory came on line. The Buick Lucerne (which was originally to have been built on Sigma) came out to fill Buick's large car position till Buick's Zeta came out. The large Chevrolet coupe was killed in favor of the GTO and Buick's Riviera (shown as the Velite in concept form) was moved to another chassis. This was the only notable casualty during the Zeta review. The US Zeta was also pushed back roughly a year (though Pontiac got their Zeta sedan on time) to help fund the GMT900s.

Then the rough schedule of events were:
Riviera was put on the back burner.
GTO was punted to Holden.
El Camino essentially died.
Cadillac signed up for Zeta to replace DTS.
Camaro was ramrodded through to where there was no choice but to approve it.
Buick dealers revolted to plans to bring the Holden Statesman to the US as the Buick Roadmaster.

The Chevrolet Zeta Impala, which was a project many at GM felt uneasy about (the current FWD one was selling nearly 300,000 annually) was killed over 1 mpg difference to a FWD version, though more likely, opponents used that point to kill an already questionable project. When the Zeta Chevrolet Impala died, it put more pressure on 2 other cars that were to be made along with it, the US sourced Buick Roadmaster, the next gen Pontiac G8, and the next gen Cadillac DTS.

Currently, there is one spinoff of the Camaro that's evidently still being considered, and Cadillac's DTS replacement is still on. GM is considering importing the Lucerne replacement from overseas (if not China, then from Daewoo in Korea which makes almost the exact same car).

Sigma, and then Zeta have been part of a long drawn out soap opera that's lasted over a decade and has had more twists than a corkscrew. Hopefully, the Alpha won't fall into the same torturous drama that's befell GM's last 2 modern RWD platforms.

Z28Wilson

I'll say it first. Firebird.

Big Als Z

Another day in "As the Tire Turns", a new soap box drama that takes place on the streets and skyscrapers of Detroit.

Maximum Bob

Thanks Guy, your post really answered the question & eliminated the notion that it was Cadiilac playing corporate politics that was to blame for Sigma's non-proliferation.

guionM

It could just as easily be a Holden/Opel/Vauxhall car, it could also just as easily be a GTO, it can even be a 4 door coupe unknown to us with rear mini-doors like the former Saturn Ion, or it can even be a production version of the GMC Denali XT.

Keep in mind, unless the coupe market absolutely explodes, General Motors isn't going to spend the very few dollars it still has left just to give Pontiac their own Camaro. It's going to fill a market void GM has.

A 4 passenger coupe that fits between the Camaro and CTS coupe.

A RWD coupe that can be marketed as a European car (ie: Vauxhall/Opel's Sky based GT).

A 4 door, highly styled, upmarket GMC cross between a car and pickup.

Or even a RWD sports sedan based on a taller version of Camaro's architecture for Chevrolet or another GM division or subsidiary.

I'm not being cagey. Something is planned to join Camaro. I can say wat is isn't, but no solid info on what it is.

Big Als Z

There should be zero car between Camaro and CTS coupe. Camaro should leave off and CTS should pick up from there.

I think an Epsilon II based Insigna coupe would be better across the globe

Would be nice, if they can develop an AWD system for Zeta.

Bingo. G8 production should be brought here, dropped in price to be more compeditive, as well as offer more options then the current one has.

30thZ286speed

I find it so frustrating to read stories about GM like this. Maybe GM is too big for its own good.
GM should have had a modern RWD chassis available across the board 10 years ago. Back then, the B-bodies would have only been gone 3 or so years and the F-body could have made a seamless transfer over to a new Camaro without 8 year void we had.

Chevy should have jumped on the RWD Roadmaster that Buick dealers rejected. They could have really used something that is slightly larger and more upscale than the Impala.

flowmotion

Fascinating story, guionM

Think about how well the Mustang and Chrysler 300 sold back in 2005, and it sounds like GM had the opportunity to get those kinds of products on the market in the early 00s before gas got ridiculously expensive.

Also the decision to stick with the W and G bodies into the 21st century really cost them a lot of sales.

teal98

The thing that concerns me about Alpha is that it is beginning to have high expectations thrust upon it. The moment someone talks about putting Camaro on it, people will want a V8 on Alpha.
Then another product team will want to match the interior room of a MerfinW C-G-3.
By the time everyone has everything they want, the car will be almost as big as Zeta and almost as heavy.

At least that's one scenario.

Another scenario has the Alpha team saying no to everything that adds weight. No V8, no roomy backseat, etc. That way, Alpha comes out at a lighter weight. But if Camaro uses it, the business case for a V8 is pretty weak (would need special upsized version of platform).

Hats off to GM if they can pull this off.

P.S. I wonder what the weight complainers would say if Camaro came out like a 1-series with a V6 as the top engine.

91_z28_4me

My concern is exactly what happened w/ Sigma (someone gets defensive and wants it all to themselves). Then we start a pissing match or turf war and at that point the program is doomed. If this happens I am done w/ GM. Ford seems to have a CEO with enough sense to completely cut this crap out, hopefully either Rick or Bob can do the same.

97z28/m6

monza