90rocz

posted by Chris 96 WS6
I agree with you Chris about cars of the '80's wholheartidly, but even now is technologies being withheld until the profits are sufficiently drained from the current ones. And being let out in dribbles so they can say next year, "Look we're doing it better this year"!. When the truth is, our advances of the last 100 years has mysteriously and dramatically stalled....how?

I'm not saying "close" the borders, not at all. What I'm saying is that, even in Domestic companies, "Reform" needs to occur to level the playing field.
We all know that there's HUGE trade deficits, and they are killing our economy.
But as long as the powers that BE(said Government) have investments to protect in these companies(Like MERC Pharmicudicals and Haliburton), NOTHING will change. Why do people NOT UNDERSTAND that "voting" changes NOTHING b/c BIG BUSINESS buys seats in the Senate that we will NEVER be able to afford (..from a few hundred-thousand dollars to over a mill.) and are able, at recesses, to pressure these "politicians" by means of "Bribery" or "Cutting Funds" or "Layoffs" to protect and further their agendas to protect their investments.

Why do you think the Revolutionary War began????
The "Brittish East India" Coperation, then bigger than Exxon now, pressured Parliment into a huge loan, and for Parliment to fund it by a $.03 tax increase on tea in the "New World". (Parliment had significant investments in the East India Company) When the colonists got wind that the largest company in the world was puppetiering Parliment, (..similar to "Lobbyists today) they were outraged and refused to assist as slaves.(read some Thomas Paine)
They would've long ago Revolted from today's issues.......
And if the war would've been lost, they would've been called Heritics and traitors, tho nothing was farther from the truth.

To say we are helping other countries by losing are jobs here and it's good for Globalization and us. Is like saying, "Here, let me crawl into the quicksand with you and then I'll pull you out"! It's just plain obsurd...
We must make America STRONG if we wish to assisst anyone and avoid a power-shift ot the E.U....

And it DOES make me sick, that GM would Co-Venture with foreign companies selling foreign cars, as if they were GM American, directly competing with their domestic product!. And then fill GM cars with "cheap made"(cost) foreign parts, and even raising the price of the product!

And now the job exporting problem is NOT just a Blue-Collar one, white collar jobs are now disappearing at an alarming rate, even in the once rock solid Medical field they are exporting tasks like reading and interpreting YOUR "CT scans"(Radiology), filing YOUR taxes, Bill collection and much more!. And these are NOT even done ON American soil, but by satelite phones and the Internet.

We're fast becoming a Despotistic system...Where greed rules and men are seen as but mere means to an end, without face or life.

SCNGENNFTHGEN

I feel as strongly as JasonE does on this subject, so I have to weigh in. And I don't know if anyone else mentioned this cuz I didn't have the time to read the whole thread. If not for the big 3 as they used to be known (big2.5 now), we might be speaking german right now. Does anyone here think that if we had another war on a large scale, honda/nissan/toyota would stop production in their plants to build our tanks/planes...etc. I think not. And anyone remember 9-11-01. Anyone see any of the truck loads of GM vehicles donated to NY so they could work to clean up that mess. I don't remember seeing truckloads of honda/nissan/toyota trucked in to help us out. No it was GM. Then Ford. Like they( Japanese) said they would defeat us through our children. So, yes this is a free country you can buy whatever you want. And you can call us idiots all you want, just like I will always laugh when I see foriegn cars with american flags on them. If the big 3 go away, who will build the equiptment that helps to provide our free country? That is what I want to know? The bias in the automotive press against GM is rediculous, most times I read only for a laugh! They can do nothing right, well screw them. I don't read automotive propaganda to find out what to buy. I know what to buy all on my own imagine that. Its like figuring out who to vote for by reading the LA/NY Times!

Robert_Nashville

There are a lot of people who's heart is in the right place but don't want to be confused by reality.

First of all, it doesnt' really make any difference how many cars/trucks GM or Ford or anybody else dontated or didn't donate to NYC because of the 9/11 attack...aside from that, how do you know no foreign nameplate donated...where is your citation/reference for your assertion? I can throw out made up facts based on pictures I did or didn't see on TV too but what in the world it that supposed to prove?

Like every other business in the world, GM does what is good for GM's business - period - doing so isn't evil...it's just business. If you truly believe otherwise, you are only fooling yourself and perhaps a handfull of laid-off UAW types who think we still live in the 1950s.

I'll keep my american flag on my Titan and 350Z, thank you very much, and you can laugh all you want...but if you want to continue fighting WW2 I think you are going to have a difficult time in life.

Darth Xed

Of course it makes a difference.

1990 Turbo Grand Prix

No problem, I'll continue to point and laugh...

Justification at work, ladies and gentlemen, has been this entire thread for the import bias views.

I'll continue to purchase what comes from an American company employing the vast majority of American auto jobs, paying the most American tax dollars, supporting the most Americans non automotive wise, giving back to the most Americans. You know, like GM and Ford do. Not some assembled *** or German car in the states.

Robert_Nashville

Awfully convenient of you to ignore (or miss) the point of the statement entirely.

Here is the point...lets say for the sake or argument that Toyota had donated say 20 times whatever number GM or Ford donated...what exactly does that prove and what does that have to to with the thread in the first place? If Nissan had donated 50 times what GM did does that make Nissan good and GM bad???

And if it does "make a difference" are we really all supposed to decide that "difference" based on pictures someone mentions he saw on TV???

Les't just rephrase that...we are supposed to believe GM is good because someone remembers seeing pictures on TV of lots of GM cars being donated but didn't see any pictures on TV of Nissan or Toyota or Honda donating vehicles...is that the ironclad argument we are supposed to decide the issue on?

If this whole discussion of foreign Vs domestic really hangs on how many vehicles each manufacturer donated to the 9/11 clean-up effort then might I suggest that you or 1990 Turbo Grand Prix actually go and look up the data from a credible source and not cite remember pictures on TV.

90rocz

This is a BIG problem that goes way beyond the "Big 3". We have lost so much of our manufacturing base that a long war(such as the War On Terror) will be a dangerous one as it wares on, on our surplus.
I find it ironic that the "White House" is calling for continuing "embargo's" on firearms from China, while EVERYTHING else is being imported from them.
Is it b/c they are protecting these selected domestic manufacturers b/c of their contract and investments in these companies???
Just as they prohibited the import of Pharmacudicals from Canada, b/c of the Bush's & Rumsfeld's investments in "Merc" and other BIG Med companies.
Why can't people see what's happening???

You guys need to look at the country wide impacts of actions and policies, and stop the fighting amongst ourselves, they are dividing and conquering, don't you see? Weigh the facts, keep the opinions out of it!
We are suffering from an age-old problem that destroyed many of great empire. It's called "Short Term Maximization", it depletes a country of valuable resources(which labor is)and cares little for the long term, focusing on the quick "return's on investment" ONLY!! We too will self-destruct, as so many in the past, it's inevitable.....

Darth Xed

I didn't miss the point at all.

You are catagorically dimissing the relevance of GM donating many vehicles to areas attacked on 9/11.

I think that is ridiculous.


I *KNOW* GM donated several vehicles.

If other companies did, great for them. I don't remember it happening though... feel free to prove me wrong by finding proof that they did so.

I think it would be great if they did so, to be honest.

My point is that saying it doesn't matter is rather ignorant. I certainly mattered to the areas that got those vehicles when they needed them.

Robert_Nashville

[QUOTE=Darth Xed]I didn't miss the point at all.

You are catagorically dimissing the relevance of GM donating many vehicles to areas attacked on 9/11.

I think that is ridiculous.


I *KNOW* GM donated several vehicles.

If other companies did, great for them. I don't remember it happening though... feel free to prove me wrong by finding proof that they did so.

I think it would be great if they did so, to be honest.

My point is that saying it doesn't matter is rather ignorant. I certainly mattered to the areas that got those vehicles when they needed them.[/QUOTE
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The ignorance here is that you are STILL missing the point...I never said or implied that donations made by GM or any other company was unimportant to the 9/11 attack or to those involved in the rescue/recovery/clean-up effort. Certainly the donations are important, were desperately needed and greatly appreciated I’m sure.

The POINT is that the whole comment about corporate donations in response to the 9/11 attack is IRRELEVENT, at least in my opinion, to what we were supposed to be discussing here.

If you really want to decide whether to buy a domestic or foreign nameplate vehicle based on how much or how little a given nameplate donated to the 9/11 attack then fine – I assume, then, that you are also going to check the 9/11 “giving history” for every other product you buy, correct???

To imply that "GM" is somehow "better" then a given foreign nameplate because it donated or didn’t donate is absurd…I’m not saying that GM or FORD or any other corporation who donated is not “patriotic” or has no social conscious at all, but corporations take or don’t take actions (such as donating to charitable causes) based on what they believe is in the best BUSINESS interests of the corporation - to assert that patriotism or social responsibility were the sole motivators to the donations is ridiculous; to further assert that those donations should support “buying American” is even more ridiculous; especially when the original poster was basing his claim on what pictures he thinks he remembered seeing on TV!.

PEOPLE act out of such moral feelings as patriotism social responsibility; corporations act out of business interests.

As for proving who did and didn’t donate, that should be the job of the poster (and his supporters) that are trying to make the claim but that, apparently, would be expecting too much. So here is one place where you can find the “Facts”:

http://www.autoalliance.org/archives...rityreport.pdf

I think you’ll find that the foreign nameplates acted at least as, if not more, patriotically to the attack than the domestics (especially if you take into account the ratio of $donated/$revenues of the corporations).

Again, however, it proves nothing at all in regards to the original thread.

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Robert_Nashville

More Food for Thought!

Toyota Targets U.S. Market with Expansion Plan
The Detroit News
Toyota Motor Co. will likely add two more assembly plants in North America by the end of the decade as part of its broader strategy to take a bigger chunk of the world's richest auto market and challenge General Motors Corp. as the world's No. 1 automaker. Toyota will likely announce a site for a No. 7 assembly plant in North America by the end of this year and begin a site-search for a No. 8 plant soon thereafter, according to senior company executives. Toyota earlier this month officially opened a plant in Mexico that will make small pickups and truck beds, and is gearing up to complete a big new factory in Texas that will start next year building a new line of large pickups aimed at the heart of the American market. Toyota's aggressive expansion in the face of chronic overcapacity in the North American vehicle market promises to accelerate a painful shift of power and jobs in the U.S. auto industry. With growth in overall U.S. vehicle sales stuck in neutral, the industry appears to be headed for a period in which strong players use their financial and market power to hammer weaker ones into surrendering market share. The unionized operations of Detroit's Big Three are at risk, in large part because over the years management has agreed to rich pension and health-care packages that now saddle them with $1,000 to $2,000 per vehicle more in costs than Toyota's new North American operations, according to industry analysts. From the point of view of Japan's Big Three auto makers -- Toyota, Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. -- there remains enormous, untapped profit potential in the U.S. market. Honda, for example, just launched its first entry into the pickup truck market, the Honda Ridgeline, in a bid to take a slice of the outsized profits in that segment. Nissan Chief Executive Officer Carlos Ghosn said earlier this year in Detroit that his company's strategy is to compete in every significant market segment in the U.S. -- one reason why Nissan built a factory in Mississippi, which came online in 2003, to produce its first-ever large pickup and large sport-utility vehicles for the U.S. market. Sales of those vehicles contributed to Nissan's 24 percent sales increase in the U.S. in 2004, and its 10 percent operating profit margin, among the highest in the industry.

SCNGENNFTHGEN

You bet they needed those vehicles. They donated them because they cared about their country. These other countries do not care about our country the way we do. If nissan or honda does it they are doing it for business. I grew up bashing Ford & Dodge, usually Ford more, but now not so much. I have much more respect for our companies now, and understand how important they are. I donot like GM cus they donated some cars. I like GM because they are the best, the innovators in the industry. The proof is in our history. I do not believe that, because they donated some cars! So if you want to believe that I am fighting WW2, go right ahead. I will still look at the emblem on a beemer and see the props of the planes that tried to kill my grandfathers generation, and in effect my country. Regardless of how good or bad their product might be. Just like nissan/honda/toyota no matter how good or bad their product may be, I will always see them as cheep cars, that came in when the big 3 were hurt by the gas crunch. I am a car guy I like cars, I just like American cars. These other coutries are jealous of America and would love to see us defeated. If our companies fall so will our country. It was a big plus for me that Buells are american bikes, but it was the demo ride that sold me on it. I was going to buy an R1. I do not regret it. A buddy of mine has both, he never rides the R1 cus he always gets ticketson it. I like innovative American companies, so if I have a chance to buy such a product, great. There is a big bias against my favorite company, and I don't like it. Even though it probably makes them work harder to make the product better. Anyone remember 97 when the LS1 came out all the accolades for such a great design? They didn't last to long it was like they couldn't take it, and it wasn't long before they started with all the anchient pushrod technology crap. When the hemi came out, anyone hear any of this... No I can't remember hearing any of this.The automotive press is bias.

Darth Xed

[QUOTE=Robert_Nashville]The whole point of this thread is to discuss reasons to buy domestic or imported vehicles based on what companies supports more Americans.... Certainly GM donating these vehicles is supporting the United States and it's people.

I think it is perfectly logical to say that the domestic donations of 9/11 are a genuine reason to stand behind our own companies.

And, at least to me, your post was easily readable as totally dismissing the donations as worthless for any reason.

Robert_Nashville

So when GM donates vehicles/money it's because they "care" but when Toyota or Nissan or BMW donate it's just to look good? Is that what you are saying? Do you have anything other than your opinion to support that claim?

Did you even read the repot with the stats (that you asked for) of what/how much every automotive vehicle manufacturere donated to the 9/11 attacks???

Darth Xed

If you read my response, I said "If other companies did, great for them." so, no, I am not saying it matter more for one company than another.

And, looking at your report, there are certainly some import manufacturers NOT listed... Honda certainly sticks out by not being listed.

It's also interesting that YOU said this does NOT matter, but now you are pointing out that SOME other companies have, so they all apparently stepped up to the plate in the same fashion?

Yes, I did... and it certainly look slike GM, Chrysler, and Ford dwarfed everyone else as far as what they donated.

And, again, there are some curiously missing folks too... Honda?? Subaru?? Hyundai?? Kia??

Robert_Nashville

1. What I'm pointing out are the facts (which no one else was willing to look-up) and not someone's reollection of pictures they saw on TV...I still contend that the argument of "who gave the biggest contribution to the 9/11 effort" is a ridiculous point in regards to whether of not we should "buy American".

2. ALSO, as I mentioned, compare what was given by each company to the revenues of the company giving it, then you'll have a measure of the company's sacrifice, not just "total dollars".

3. The list supplied is of the manufacturers who belonged to the organization0 that compiled the summary at the time; not all manufacturers belong. In fact, I know Nissan is not currently a member but was at the time. SO, it is not safe or reasonable to assume that someone absent from that particular list automatically "didn't give" anything.