Chewbacca

There are plenty of "sanctioned" tracks that would rival some of the worst interstates for bumps and undulations.

Sebring is one. Did you watch the linked video? Do you think a well designed and sorted IRS would have an advantage over a SRA there?

Lime Rock is another. At least it was for a long, long time. Some recent repaving has helped.

Sax1031

Yes I do believe a well designed IRS would out handle a SRA on rough roads.

Most the places you are going to be able to legally road race the advantage is not that big if any.

teal98

I doubt it. Building cars a little smaller but just as strong doesn't seem to save much weight. Of course, the current Camaro probably won't gain much weight in the Z/28 model if the tuner cars are anything to go by, so maybe it doesn't need to be a strong as it is for a mere (I can't believe I used that word in this context) 400tq.

I presume you saw Geoff Chadwick's post on the topic of the next Mustang. If IRS is optional as some speculate, I bet it's heavier than the current one with that option.

We'll see how it plays out -- it's all speculation now, of course. But I'd avoid getting too excited until there is actually a credible rumor (not just a credible goal or desire) of a car at the weight of the 4th gen. There's just so much more equipment on new cars....

I think some of this will depend on 2011 Mustang vs Camaro sales. We'll see whether an 18 month old car outsells an updated 6 year-old that's been to the gym recently.

Z284ever

Here's my take. Alpha has been assigned almost mystical status to itself. Lightweight with fantastic handling prowess. Something which can go toe to toe with BMW. The bar is set pretty high for it. Anything less will create a backlash of disappointment by even casual observers.

Fact: The '11 Mustang will pretty handily beat Camaro on any performance metric you'd like to use. Handling, braking, acceleration, fuel economy, price - you name it. Essentially, Camaro is being outclassed. The next gen Mustang (2014-ish) will literally make the current gen Camaro irrelevant as a serious performance competitor - yes, I know it's painful to accept, but true nonetheless.

The point here? Alpha had damned well better be as good as we hope it is. Not so much that it might blow Mustang away, but merely to catch up with it.

teal98

Mystical or mythical? I can see that in your posts

The main goal of Alpha is to give Cadillac a car to on BMW directly, right? My thinking is that BMW won't make it easy, so what I expect is something roughly comparable to BMW in size and weight, but with some American flair and perhaps taking advantage of some GM capabilities.

SSbaby

Outclassed. Puhhlease!

The only reason Mustang is lighter is because it's under-engineered.

WhiteHawk

Yea, but it won't be a Chevy. And by pricing do you mean it will be more expensive? Because from what I have seen, even the V6 Mustang is going to come in higher than the Camaro.

Plus, are you new to this? You know how this works right, GM builds a car, then Ford tops it, then GM comes back with a better one, etc. Even the fourth gens blew the doors off their Ford counterparts. So Ford gets the lead for while. You don't think GM will come back? This game has been going on since the 80's! Why would it stop now? History says GM will be back with a vengeance. Why would you think differently?

And why are you acting like the world is going to end? This is a great time to be a pony car fan! I think you just enjoy saying stuff like you do because it pisses people off. To each his own I guess. But if this is how you get your jollies, I suggest some real therapy, not taking out your frustrations in life by aggrevating people here.

-Geoff

91_z28_4me

I can't wait to see this post get ripped apart by someone.

SharpShooter_SS

I'm not so convinced that the current Camaro is quite so lame-duck as that. Is it compromised? Sure it is, but so has every generation of Camaro before it been compromised in one area or another. Camaro is the quintessential four wheeled compromise. Will Alpha be that much better, and be the holy grail of Camaro-ness? Who knows, but this gen is not dead yet and there is undeniable room (in the aftermarket if not the factory) for improvement. It's not like Mustang buyers flocked to the Camaro just because it got whipped by the F-body in any performance metric in the past, no Mustang continued to outsell the lower-slung, better performing 4 seat Corvette.

Anyway, I'm reasonably sure that GM may have more than one trick up the old sleeve to even the playing field even without trying to remove bulk that is there to handle the punishment from more powertrain capability than is currently being generated under the hood. It is what it is for now. We'll have to see what Alpha brings when it shows up, but for now, it's still a good time to be a ponycar fan.

Z28Wilson

How is it "underengineered"? I assume you are referring to the suspension?

Not as nice a setup as Zeta, but let's be honest, a proper IRS wouldn't add 300 pounds to that car. Mustang is lighter because it doesn't have almost the exact DNA as a full-size sedan.

I think all Charlie is pointing out is that the Zeta Camaro is a bit limited as far as potential, and that Alpha is really our best hope to leapfrog Mustang again next time out.

I have little doubt that Chevy will retune the suspension, and maybe offer a handling package to address some of the complaints. Hopefully V6 sales pick up and we can retain this sales lead for a while.

Z284ever

Whew! Sorry, must have really touched a nerve.

SSbaby

The whole car. One is last generation with a patch-up. The other is new generation. You can work out which is which. The structure, IRS, etc... is what separates each generation.

I laugh at the use of the word "outclassed". I don't think anybody worth their salt would use the word "class" and Mustang in the same sentence. The Mustang is good for what it is but it's no legitimate BMW M3 rival.


QFT

Thank goodness I'm not the only one who thinks the same way. If his comments were constructive, I'd be more understanding. They just seem like perpetual rants...

The BMW M3 at 3707lbs is heavier than the 2011 Mustang by 100lbs. I'm sure the M3 is better balanced with a lower center of gravity, even if it is the heavier car. It's something the stats don't show. It's something tangible that you could feel during a drive. I know which car I'd prefer to have in my driveway and it wouldn't be the lighter car.

Weight, itself is a meaningless statistic. Weight balance and center of gravity is more important.

Sax1031

BMWs out class anything from the big 3 domestic auto makers.

rlchv70

That is very far from the truth. Weight is one of the primary factors in determining the performance of a vehicle.

SSbaby

If you drag race for a living... yes you are right, but if you circuit race...

If you look at F1 cars for instance, some cars are lighter than others but the cars with generally the lowest centre of gravity and best mechanical and aero balance always outperform the outright lightest cars. These cars wear their tires evenly as opposed to the others.

If you need another example, you figure the Mustang would outrun the 100 lb heavier BMW, with near identical power? The answer is yes, judging from your 'simpleton' statement, but is the answer really as clear cut as you say?

The M3 has better weight balance and better mechanical grip. It will always outrun a '11 Mustang even if it is the heavier car.