6th gen Camaro wish list.
02-25-2008, 03:19 PM
#226
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02-25-2008, 04:05 PM
#227
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The new CAFE law says that manufacturers have until 2020 to get their average up to 35 MPG. It seems like everyone is forgetting that CAFE takes into account EVERY model a manufacturer makes. How many 35+ MPG Aveos, Cobalts, small Alpha cars, etc. or their successors will GM be making to counteract a few V8 sports cars?
You just said in your own post - EVERY vehicle they make must AVERAGE the CAFE target. So... I think you missed something there, Bub.
How many HD trucks, Denalis and Corvettes will they be making?
Do we want to look at GM's ENTIRE portfolio? Then let's look at Hummers, Caddy DTS's, HD truck lines, regular truck lines, small truck lines, Rendezvoux, Lucerne, G8, G6, Solstice, and all the others that are not at or above 35, because if they are not at or above it now, they count AGAINST the average and they have work to do.
And let's be honest... some vehicles like the hummers and HD trucks will liely never hit 35 realistically. Vette and Caddys... maybe.
Point is, Camaro will be needing to maximize MPG as much as possible simply because it is a vehicle that CAN do better than 35 mpg if properly equipped. RIGHT NOW we have the time and resources to plan for that inevitable occurrance - why not do so?
I'll wager you that G8 will not be around when that regulation comes to pass.
02-25-2008, 04:07 PM
#228
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You don't have to kill Barny for diesel or ethanol.
02-25-2008, 04:11 PM
#229
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02-25-2008, 06:31 PM
#230
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02-25-2008, 06:45 PM
#231
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel_from_algae
Currently most research into efficient algal-oil production is being done in the private sector, but if predictions from small scale production experiments bear out then using algae to produce biodiesel may be the only viable method by which to produce enough automotive fuel to replace current world gasoline usage.
The United States Department of Energy estimates that if algae fuel replaced all the petroleum fuel in the United States, it would require 15,000 square miles (38,849 square kilometers), which is a few thousand square miles larger than Maryland, or 1.3 Belgiums.
Some open sewage ponds trial production has been done in Marlborough, New Zealand.
Could you imagine, the **** you flush down the toilet today, could power your car tomorrow?
02-25-2008, 07:58 PM
#232
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Not necessarily. The 4th gen 6-cylinder F-bodies are capable of 30+ MPG on the highway, and even the LS1 cars can get near 30 highway MPG if the driver isn't beating on the car.
Regardless, if you surveyed the people who buy these cars, and asked them why they bought the car, fuel economy wouldn't be high on their list.
Regardless, if you surveyed the people who buy these cars, and asked them why they bought the car, fuel economy wouldn't be high on their list.
Increase potential market.
Sell more.
Etc.
02-25-2008, 08:17 PM
#233
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A hybrid 4 base (yielding 50-60 mpg - NO PERFORMANCE NECESSARY, JUST MOTIVE FORCES).
A V6 geared to deliver 35-38 mpg regardless of acceleration loss
A TDi 4 or 5 cyl (should get a from some of you)
A base V8 capable of 30 mpg or better (not a stretch for LSx engines really).
Then a top-dog S/C V8 - shoot for the stars with it - not many will buy at that level so CAFE averages will be minimally affected (just expect the guzzler tax).
A V6 geared to deliver 35-38 mpg regardless of acceleration loss
A TDi 4 or 5 cyl (should get a
from some of you)A base V8 capable of 30 mpg or better (not a stretch for LSx engines really).
Then a top-dog S/C V8 - shoot for the stars with it - not many will buy at that level so CAFE averages will be minimally affected (just expect the guzzler tax).
The Cobalt with a 2.4l and auto today gets 33.16 on the CAFE combined test, so it's close to the required 35. This Alpha Camaro would be a bit heavier, but hopefully improved technology could get it over 35.
The best mileage RWD V6 out there today (that I can think of) is the Lexus IS250 RWD A6. It gets 31.75 EPA combined. It would need another 10% to hit 35.
02-25-2008, 11:20 PM
#234
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Originally Posted by ProudPony
A hybrid 4 base (yielding 50-60 mpg - NO PERFORMANCE NECESSARY, JUST MOTIVE FORCES).
A V6 geared to deliver 35-38 mpg regardless of acceleration loss
A TDi 4 or 5 cyl (should get a from some of you)
A base V8 capable of 30 mpg or better (not a stretch for LSx engines really).
Then a top-dog S/C V8 - shoot for the stars with it - not many will buy at that level so CAFE averages will be minimally affected (just expect the guzzler tax).
A hybrid 4 base (yielding 50-60 mpg - NO PERFORMANCE NECESSARY, JUST MOTIVE FORCES).
A V6 geared to deliver 35-38 mpg regardless of acceleration loss
A TDi 4 or 5 cyl (should get a from some of you)
A base V8 capable of 30 mpg or better (not a stretch for LSx engines really).
Then a top-dog S/C V8 - shoot for the stars with it - not many will buy at that level so CAFE averages will be minimally affected (just expect the guzzler tax).
The only changes I might make would be;
Eliminate the Hybrid 4 base...give it to a high volume model.
I still think the TDi 4 should reach 50-60mpg.
The TDi 4 or V6 wouldn't be bought for blistering acceleration anyways.
But I wouldn't be surprised if modded TDi 4's give stock base V8 versions a run for their money.
02-26-2008, 08:09 AM
#235
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A few V8 sports cars?!?! For real?
You just said in your own post - EVERY vehicle they make must AVERAGE the CAFE target. So... I think you missed something there, Bub.
How many HD trucks, Denalis and Corvettes will they be making?
Do we want to look at GM's ENTIRE portfolio? Then let's look at Hummers, Caddy DTS's, HD truck lines, regular truck lines, small truck lines, Rendezvoux, Lucerne, G8, G6, Solstice, and all the others that are not at or above 35, because if they are not at or above it now, they count AGAINST the average and they have work to do.
And let's be honest... some vehicles like the hummers and HD trucks will liely never hit 35 realistically. Vette and Caddys... maybe.
Point is, Camaro will be needing to maximize MPG as much as possible simply because it is a vehicle that CAN do better than 35 mpg if properly equipped. RIGHT NOW we have the time and resources to plan for that inevitable occurrance - why not do so?
I'll wager you that G8 will not be around when that regulation comes to pass.
You just said in your own post - EVERY vehicle they make must AVERAGE the CAFE target. So... I think you missed something there, Bub.
How many HD trucks, Denalis and Corvettes will they be making?
Do we want to look at GM's ENTIRE portfolio? Then let's look at Hummers, Caddy DTS's, HD truck lines, regular truck lines, small truck lines, Rendezvoux, Lucerne, G8, G6, Solstice, and all the others that are not at or above 35, because if they are not at or above it now, they count AGAINST the average and they have work to do.
And let's be honest... some vehicles like the hummers and HD trucks will liely never hit 35 realistically. Vette and Caddys... maybe.
Point is, Camaro will be needing to maximize MPG as much as possible simply because it is a vehicle that CAN do better than 35 mpg if properly equipped. RIGHT NOW we have the time and resources to plan for that inevitable occurrance - why not do so?
I'll wager you that G8 will not be around when that regulation comes to pass.
I was just reading up on CAFE, and I found a gigantic loophole that hopefully won't get closed. Alternative fuel vehicles get an incentive that multiplies the actual fuel used by a "Fuel Content" factor of 0.15. Dual-fuel vehicles (like GM's E85-capable cars and trucks) take the average of the alternative fuel rate and the gasoline rate. An 15 MPG E85-capable vehicle will count as 40 MPG for CAFE purposes.
An E85-capable Camaro lineup would certainly be CAFE-friendly, and have the additional advantage of not sacrificing performance.
02-26-2008, 08:12 AM
#236
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Unfortunately, there's no incentive for oil companies to manufacture biodiesel, and until there is, that infrastructure won't happen.
02-26-2008, 09:12 AM
#238
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If the fuel filter is changed within 600-800 miles of switching to biodiesel, you should be fine. The biodiesel itself doesn't clog injectors - it's a very good solvent, and it's the petrodiesel deposits it loosens up that clog the fuel filter or injectors.
02-26-2008, 09:56 AM
#239
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For the fuel-efficient V6, 35 MPG.
For the performance V6, between 26-30 MPG.
For the V8, 25 MPG should be doable.
I can forsee the fuel-efficient V6 selling a lot of cars, and lower quantities of the performance V6 and the V8 cars being sold. The higher numbers of the base model sales should offset the mileage numbers of the other cars. The entire Camaro lineup combined may not hit 35 MPG, but the rest of GM's lineup should cover the relatively small amount of performance V6 and V8 cars sold.
For the performance V6, between 26-30 MPG.
For the V8, 25 MPG should be doable.
I can forsee the fuel-efficient V6 selling a lot of cars, and lower quantities of the performance V6 and the V8 cars being sold. The higher numbers of the base model sales should offset the mileage numbers of the other cars. The entire Camaro lineup combined may not hit 35 MPG, but the rest of GM's lineup should cover the relatively small amount of performance V6 and V8 cars sold.
Very soon, about 280 hp or so, will be the price of admission for a V6 in any car. So I'm not sure if a lower powered V6 would be considered weak sauce by the market place or not.
So we're back to which combo of powertrains gets a 6th gen Camaro to CAFE positive status? Would a hybrid get there? Maybe, at great cost though.
Would some incredibly efficient 4 cylinder get there? Don't know - even a turbo 1.6L might be hard pressed.
Anyway you look at it, some pretty radical changes will be required.
02-26-2008, 10:03 AM
#240
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Very soon, about 280 hp or so, will be the price of admission for a V6 in any car. So I'm not sure if a lower powered V6 would be considered weak sauce by the market place or not.
So we're back to which combo of powertrains gets a 6th gen Camaro to CAFE positive status? Would a hybrid get there? Maybe, at great cost though.
Would some incredibly efficient 4 cylinder get there? Don't know - even a turbo 1.6L might be hard pressed.
Anyway you look at it, some pretty radical changes will be required.
So we're back to which combo of powertrains gets a 6th gen Camaro to CAFE positive status? Would a hybrid get there? Maybe, at great cost though.
Would some incredibly efficient 4 cylinder get there? Don't know - even a turbo 1.6L might be hard pressed.
Anyway you look at it, some pretty radical changes will be required.
For the performance V6, at least 320+ HP.
For the V8, 400+ HP.
Make all of them E85-capable, and exploit the dual-fuel loophole in the CAFE law.
Then we have this discussion all over again for the 7th gen, when the engineers have had some time to work on a better solution.