One of the drawbacks in writing something vs talking in person or over the phone is that it's easier to misinterpret what you are saying and what you mean behind what you say. Also, it's easier to forget (on the internet anyway) the difference between a call to arms, and an opinion thrown out for discussion or debate. I feel that some may have taken my post as the former instead of the latter.

I made that post because I feel certain ways about information, and I realize that standards are uneven in the availablity of information. For example, everyone and their brother knows that GM has a RWD chassis coming out in a couple of years. We also know that GTO, and a series of sedans are coming off that chassis, even the approximate year. We also have regular progress reports on the Solstice, including having the press invited to test drive a mule earlier this year, and write about it in their respective magazines. Plenty of it came from GM itself, let alone the various trade publications. Even the factory rumor mill at Oshawa has been aware of the likelihood of GM building Zeta cars there since last year (back when I was still thinking Hamtramck).

Yet, when something comes out regarding Camaro's replacement that didn't come from GM's media department, & I comment on it getting pulled, I get an email (independent from Jason, so don't even think it!) saying that jobs are at stake, supplier's livelihoods are in jepordy, imports now know what domestic automaker's plans are, etc, etc. Despite that I'd say 85% of the information I get comes from those very suppliers and union reps, and most of it with permission to post (though only about a quarter of the time I actually do). I'd say of the 25% of the information I actually get from behind the scenes of the automaker itself, probally only a half is told in confidence. Even then, I don't post it till it comes from multiple sources.



My thread was NOT a slam directed towards Jason or the site, and I'm glad he knows that. I pointed out that this IS his site, and he does have the right to run it however he sees fit, or feel he needs to. That is why I really don't understand the venom directed towards him.

The theme of my thread was if the only information we can post is "Authorized" information, perhaps it was time to close up the 5th gen section. I made a point to commend Jason on the difficult job he's done here and the reach this website has aquired. But I stated the opinion that if the only information allowed to post here was info available at GM Media, then this community would be irrelevent.

There is never a need to apologize for giving an opinion... sorry.

But what I WILL say is that alot of the things directed to Jason was totally and completely uncalled for, and it's a shame Jason closed the thread before I was able to comment on it.

Again, I don't know the reasons why things that were once allowed to be posted here are now pulled. I DO know that Jason is probally under at least some "encouragement" to keep things from being posted. I've experienced the same type of "encouragement" myself (that ridiculous reaction to the story I wrote using freely available newspaper stories & GM's own press releases is a perfect example as to how out of whack and bizzare things can get ).

When you run a site as big as this, people become sensitive when their info is published. BlueOvalNews had similar "issues" with Ford some years ago, and actually had to deal with lawsuit threats.

Look at it this way, you can always go to another site, get real information there, and come back here & tell us about it and where to look (without posting the link).

 

Nice write up. Regarding Jason and the site, I share your feelings excatly. I believe that its his responsibility to run the site how he sees it fit. So if some people dont like it then quit your bitchin and make up your own site.

 

the problem is that that when he pulled this info everyone got confused. it seemed like a legitimate thing to post and such since it was a link to the main site (GM would rather us do this so they can track the info to the leak source). the thing is that this was an exception to the rule for reasons Jason won't tell us. so him removing it is an exception to an old rule, no a new rule.

 

I'd say if the people feeding you info have a right to give permission to post, they should be willing to be quoted as the source.

If not, then I venture they don't have ownership to do so, nor the ***** to live up to any contract they have signed... as suppliers, etc. sign contracts. Legally binding ones no doubt. There's maybe some questions of ethics and motivations here that folks either choose to minimize or ignore. The folks I have respected most in my life have passion, but also an ability to think prior to speaking.

One might strike it up as all in good fun... but what is the opinion if things posted DO cost jobs, careers, money? Is the motivator money, ego, altruism...what exactly frames the ethical decisions in these situations?

 

BON was sued for possessing and posting Ford copyrighted documents. Not silly embargoed pictures, but actual documents created by Ford about future product.

We are in a very gray area here since aside from the embargo stuff, none of this is actual GM property. Do you think GM would sue CamaroZ28.com, or any other enthusiast website for basically....being enthusiastic and posting info they didn't author and own no copyright too? They can however punish employees/suppliers who leak info, but that is an internal issue that should not even be posted here.

One other thing to think about...

Soon as the 05 GTO information leaked, GM was forced to put rebates on the GTO, which also essentially ended markups (how do you mark up a car with rebates). It could be argued that distribution of that info saved thousands of consumers money in purchase price and lost dollars in depriciation because GM intended to make the 04 version of the GTO yesterdays news after only one model year (in a time of 7 year product cycles). Unless that info was actually stolen (it wasn't-they just placed it in a public area of thier website to early), I doubt the general public or legal system would feel any sympathy for GM.

As for the imports knowing GM's guture plans...it is rumored Toyota has a corprate espionage network that would make the KGB blush. I really don't think they are getting thier info from here, my sites, or any enthusiast sites.

Camaro is the third most recognized brand name in the world (or something like that), so no matter what transpired or how mismanaged GM was at the time, it is UNACCEPTABLE for GM to not have a Camaro on the road right now. In a market where regonition is everything, it is crazy to even think GM would put put a brand name like Camaro in such situation with union contracts, etc. GM's leadership owes thier stakeholders much better decision making. This is not a shot at you know who, because we all know where he stands, and that he spends his every waking hour trying to undo damage. The saddest thing is, it all starts with the cars. We hear complaining about pensions, over capacity, etc...but in reality, it is nothing that decent product, and better management would not fix. I know that is easier said than done, but sometimes the truth hurts.


Hynudai develops it's cars on a much longer development cycle to ensure quality...and [b]THEY[b] want people to know about it, and whats in the pipeline.

 

I agree with GuionM

 

So, using your viewpoint as a guideline, and realizing that's where every single car mag gets their info, including input for their drawings, and knowing that 99% of the info that comes in from people who don't want to be quoted as a source, you support the idea of shutting down ALL distribution of ALL future car information, therefore shutting down not only this 5th gen thread, and future vehicle threads of every single internet website, but also every single automotive advance vehicle news section in every single car magazine, periodical, and news source.

I'm asking because that's the actual reality you are dealing with here.

I also can't help but notice you post here on this future 5th gen and future vehicle like the rest of us.

Therefore, you are benefitting from the exact same information you are ralling against. So, do you favor shutting this area of this site down??

 

I hope my reply to your previsou thread was understood to be in the light of your post here.

If the information is in the public domain, and I would qualify that as including PREVIOUSLY PUBLISHED information, or information that is not copyright protected (such as copyrighted pictures) then it ought to be posted here.

I guess I just don't understand.

If someone can clue me in, I'd like to hear it.

 

Ditto PacerX. Me too.

 

email me and clue me in

prsce22@hotmail.com

 

I don't know where this came from, but even Pontiac's general manager would dismiss this. Fact is (as he will freely admit) is in distribution, and off the record he will even hint to high dealer markups resulting from errors in distribution. Any 2005 GTO leak had no influence in the decision to issue rebates, and anyone who told you that is flat out wrong. I don't say something like that often, so I think it shows the reality here.

As is often the case here lately, you are on to something, Brandon.

I find it very intresting that although GM freely opens up about their plans on the future GTO, Cadillacs, Soilstice, even it's Zeta program, it's ONLY the reference to ONLY Camaro's replacement that the subject gets turned to "people's livelihoods", "pension plans", "union contracts", etc...

Very intresting.

 

Good point. I want to say so much, but my head hurts and I really dont feel like typing something like Guy posted....maybe later. Just save me a spot here.

 

I missed the whole deleted info thing...but I just found the title of the file posted in a different thread and put it into google. Presto available for download from a non-car site. I put the author's name into google, and based upon what he does why it can't be here is a real shame.

I can see where guion is coming from...if this stuff is taboo what can we talk about?

 

You draw an erroneous conclusion that conversation stops if leaks are not present. This isn't a magazine. Magazines work a much tighter ethical standard than internet posters do. Magazines make business decisions and make judgements on legalities and copyrights. Magazines do, no doubt seek out info. How they present it is way different than what we speak about here. Let's not smoke screen this as some "Everyone else is doing it" thing. Editors decide what's printed in their publications. I suppose in that context Jason would be the editorial staff, but I still see no connection.

My suggestion isn't shutting down all discussion of info. I didn't say that. You may see no disctinction in discussion of rumor or speculation and posting posting copyrighted materials or documents, but I do. So do the magazines you mention. There's a difference between "I heard" or "I think" and I have proof in written or electronic form.

To me it's about ETHICS, first, middle, last. I'll grant that people will rationalize what they will. If someone doesn't want to be quoted as the source, it's likely they don't have ownership to share.

I don't make the connection that without inside info, backed with documentation, ceases anything useful coming from future vehicle discussions here or elsewhere. People may say all is fair in love and war, but more often it's a cover for questionable ethical decisions made.

Discussing what's liked, not liked, hoped for, deal maker/breaker... all are of value in a future vehicle discussion context.

I do post here and read the postings here. I'm interested in the likes and dislikes and the enthusiasm for cars in general and GM in particular.

I'm not here for insider info, I don't need it.

 

To me, cars like the Camaro, 454SS, and 1996 Impala SS are the real halo cars of Chevy. When I was growing up these are the cars that got Chevy respect, not the Vette. The Corvette is such a great product and it's price and quality so much higher than the rest of the Chevy lineup that some times the Vette doesn't even feel like a Chevy. The Corvette name is so well known that no one ever calls it "Cheverolet Corvette", it is just known as a "Vette" or "Corvette".

A new Camaro would be an easy 75,000 sales/yr. In this very competative market that is now turning to niches for that last mile of sales, it is hard to believe GM/Chevrolet would have dragged its feet this long on afordable RWD V8 cars.