So the Camaro won't do good because you don't like the Holden Monaro

 

No....I'm saying GM better get thier act together this time. With the cars that Ford and Dodge have been putting out and are about to release the 07 Camaro better be on point or it's not going to be very successful...much like the current GTO. It's going to take allot more than a big engine to win this war.

 

Ah, I will agree with you on that point. Half the battle in this war is styling.

However, recent and upcoming offerings (G6, C6, Solstice, XLR and CTS) has my confidence pretty high that GM is about style AND substance again.

 

Not to hi jack this thread or anything, but how would the Firebird get its own engine anyways? If every engine is mage by GM powertrain and everything is now "Corporate", it's not like Pontiac could create its own engine anyways. AM I wrong on this??

 

'Back in the days', pre 1978 or so, all the GM divisions had their own engines. For example, Chevelles had 396s and 454s, while Goats had 389s and 455s. I think the big block was the most shared engine, only Chevy (454) and Caddy (502) didn't use the 455, but it was used in Buick, Olds and Pontiac. It gets deeper and more complex from there. This was the basis from some lawsuits towards GM in the late 70s when they started sharing engines.

Further on, in the '70s the T/A marched on with the 455 and eventually the 6.6 (400 cu. in.?) which were strictly Pontiac engines.

Asketisk here: Chevy and GMC had a small block 400 in the trucks. I don't know if this is the same architecture as the T/A's 6.6L

 

Heatmaker Hates the Fbody even though he owns a couple.
Hes wacked out & not very bright. When he starts telling RP that he dont know his butt form a hole in the ground.

 

Oh I know most of the history and how Pontiac had the 6.6 400 and 455's and what not. But that's my point, some people always bring up the fact that that the Firebird doesn't have it's own engine and therefore shouldn't be produced. But how would Pontiac engineer a totally new engine with the set up that GM Powertrain is now? Thats what I'm asking.

 

Chevrolet had 2 blocks, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile, and Cadillac had 1. Dimensionally, Chevy's small block was externally smaller than the blocks from the other divisions.

Chevy's 400 ci small block was the same size as the 289-350 externally. They used it in trucks & pre 77 Caprices and Chevelles. It was externally balenced, had a different flywheel, and had pretty thin walls, and couldn't really be built up. I wanted replace the 305 in my Monza with one almost 20 years ago, but had to settle for a 350 instead.

You're right, GM did have to face lawsuits over their initially unannounced engine swaps (people buying Buicks & discovering Chevy engines, or Pontiacs with Olds powerplants).

No so much that Firebird shouldn't be produced. It's just that in a pinch, there is no longer anything that makes the Firebird stand apart from the Camaro (or an aftermarket front end on a Corvette). I just feel there isn't enough unique about the Firebird to warrant making & marketing them if it means a better Camaro.

It goes beyond just the engine (though that's a HUGE part.

Pontiac doesn't tune their own suspensions anymore. They used to. That all but died in 1983. Trans Ams handled different and felt different than Z28s. Today that isn't the case. Firebirds had more eye catching interiors than Camaros (look at the turned alumunum dash & 3 spoke "Formula" steering wheel of the late 70s T/A, then look at the Z28's... far cry over later models).

Once upon a time, despite being the same body, Trans Ams & Z28s were different cars, with different personalities. That ended in '83. That's why I say, Firebirds have been dead since 1983 (save the possible exception of the 1989 Turbo Trans Am).

As far as coming up with a different powertrain today (though not at all likely), there's plenty of options. A 5.3 with a supercharger is one option. A LS7 with LS2 heads is another. Yet another is simply have GM powertrain design a different cam, geared for more torque over horsepower. Yet another is simply dressing up the engine (as opposed to hiding it under a large plastic shroud.

But as I said before, although a separate engine (or at least a different version of one) went a long way, it goes well beyond that.

 

I don't know if they would or really could (financially). Perhaps if Pontaic alone teamed with another automaker (like GM's collaboration with Ford on the 6 speed FWD tranny), but I think that's be about it.

I see your point now. It seems a silly arguement.

 

That's what I'm trying to get at. The Firebird ( and T/A) were different from Camaro back in the day through suspension, handling and what not ( The engine argument could be solved but probably isn't likely in today's GM corporate world ) So I ask, why couldn't this be done again? Why couldn't Pontiac differentiate the Firebird from the Camaro through other means other than different skin and/ or engine option? And considering Pontiac was able to get a different cam for the LS1 in the GTO, why wouldn't they be able to do so for Firebird in other areas to differentiate it? I understand ( well I think I do ) that the process at GM isn't exactly churning at the bit for Firebird, but I feel that Pontiac could use Firebird in its lineup and differentiate it enough to make it successful. I guess it's just a pipe dream though.

 

This is a great debate and I can't pass up jumping in.

First of all, I don't think the engine argument is even valid these days. The LT1, LS1, LS2, et al, are all GM engines - not Chevy engines. Yes, the 350 was a Chevy block from the 50's but it's come a long way baby and it wasn't Chevy that did it. If it's really so important that a motor be built by the division it goes into, why does the CTX-v have an LS6 (and no-ones complaining)? What about Holden?

I'm all in favor of a Firebird coming back and I'd support a campaign to get it just like the "Save the F-Body" movement. But, I don't think it should come back as a Camaro clone. I know this is sacrilege, but I tend to look at 4th Gen Camaros as "influenced" by Pontiac designers. (putting on flame suite )

 

"Chevrolet had 2 blocks, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile, and Cadillac had 1"

I don't want to seem pedantic, and it's relevance to the thread may be limited, but for the record, Oldsmobile had 2 blocks. The 400, 425, and 455 used a block which was a high deck version of the 330, 350, and 403 block. The deck was raised to compensate for the increased stroke of the larger displacement engines.

Bob

 

to take this thread further on a hi-jacking adventure....

Do we need to have 4 new threads a day talking about the PHR editorial? And how bout the 2 per day Cobalt threads? Does anyone even look before they post? Its like the Kris Horton design!!

 

It was org. started in the Main Lobby. & moved by Jason D to here.

 

i thought that the 07 camaro will have retro/1st body stylein..atleast from what i have read, like a trunk and not a hatch, and first gen body lines...i thought that the charger was going to have suicide doors liek the RX8...and i thought it was going to have somewhat retro cues like 70 charger style rear valance and roofline...followed by a redone modern front clip.
But i still feel that with the stang being totally redone i feel that it will hold king in this once again..and there are ALOT of mopar fans out there. Hell, i see a million hemi rams out there and its just because it has a hemi that people are buyin them
All i can say is that this new camaro better not be a gto with a diff nose..it better be totally redone and be able to show more style and power then the competators.