i just put the 35mm bar on my car. ive got the prokit and the sway bars were 1LE bars, but they were not enough for me. the car leaned too much even in the mountains. i havent autoxed mine since the seasons over but i love my 35mm bar. im also using bilstein HDs

 

Not all Pro-kits are the same. I'd have no issue on a street car with LT1 Pro-kits using the 35mm bar. TA Dreaming and some other guys have that spring/bar setup and relaly like it. Of course, he could also run the softer LS1 springs too if there is a concern about the wheel rate. But very often, it's the street guys who are looking for tremendous roll stiffness. The tires are softer so more roll stiffness makes the car more crisp. And street cars don't do though the dynamics of a track or autox car. Meaning in a lot of ways the "feel" can trump a non-optimal wheel rate.

I think LG springs are too stiff (MHO). I've been at and above those front spring rates. I don't have a big issue with them, beyond feeling like it's overkill. Lou just likes them stiffer than I do (probably because I prefer more front bar). But I think no matter how you slice it, the rear springs are way too stiff in general. And I wouldn't dream of using a bigger than stock rear bar with those springs. Let's remember that even those of you with "stiff" coil-over/weight jacker rears usually are in the 150 to 175 range. Those rear springs START there and go to something like 225 pounds. Very stiff, and very progressive. Not optimal in my mind.

 

Sam, I know your opinion about the big front bar, but for autoxing I found the car with just 450 lb/in GCs and your revalved Bilsteins with stock sway bars suited my driving style. At my ride height I got -2 camber and didn't really need more roll stiffness on the front. The car was very well balanced on 315 Kumhos.

As you may remember my car is now transforming into a road racer and I will never have a 30 lbs. front sway bar with all the trouble I'm going to to lose weight. I felt the same way when I was autoxing too. If I had wanted more roll stiffness I would have gone with higher spring rate. Now if you were to make a 35mm front bar that was hollow like SLP did, but for a more affordable price, I might be interested.

For the street I'd just take a milder setup than using such a big front bar. As you say, to each his own.

 

I'm very much one who believes that he who stands still, gets passed. Someone is always trying something new, I don't want to be the one caught behind the curve. I've run some setups that others originally thought were nuts. The biggest two are the 35mm bar on the 4th gen, and radically different setup I use on MR2's. As a matter of fact, the only time I tried something really different that didn't work out really well was on that RX7 in 2000. Still worked, but not a mind-blowing difference. Oh well....

Here's the thing with the bar. If you want to cut your roll rate in half, you need to double your spring rate. You need only add a few millimeters of bar to double the bars stiffness. Ok, I agree that the bar adds weight. Heavier springs do too, but clearly much less. However, stiffer springs do not allow as much compliance as a bar does. Fine if the road is pretty smooth, or you aren't running really stiff sidewall tires. Spring rate in the sidewalls too, just like too much bar with too much spring can be too much in total, so can a stiff tire and a stiff spring as well.

I'm very happy to hear you're pleased with the car using my shocks and 450 springs. It shows that you need not make a car really stiff and have it work. But we also don't know that it couldn't be better either.

I've been looking into having hollow bars made, but haven't been happy with the results so far. Never know, but not yet.

 

Now I am confused about al that answers. I thought that I will need a set of pretty stiff good springs/shocks, and the bigger sway bar that I can find. Now you guys are saying that I don’t need 35m, and 32 will be enough?? What about springs/shocks?? I just need great street car and cornering an overall stability on the road is the biggest issue for me. What shocks/springs/bar should I use?? (Eibach pro kit/Bilstein HD's)
Thanks
Ps. I found really cheap sway bar from 1997 Camaro SS with SLP (a level 2 front sway bar that was installed from SLP as an option through them). Is this good sway-bar for me??

 

Scyzoryk, I certainly didn't mean to confuse you. I just wanted to point out an aspect that you might not be hearing from others. I'm a big fan of taking small steps to find out what you like. I'd start with the Prokit springs with Bilstein shocks. It's better to get the front shocks revalved by Sam to work with the higher front spring rate. The car will respond better and the ride will also be better than using normal Bilstein HDs. Once you get this setup drive it for awhile and think about whether you want more roll stiffness. If you do, you might be able to find some 1LE sway bars for very cheap like I did. I got mine for about $25 a piece. If that's still not enough just use a board like this to sell your 1LE front bar for what you paid for it and get a ST 35mm from Sam.

I know it takes a little longer this way, but you're less likely to go overboard if you take this approach I think.

Since you're only driving this car on the street though, if you go too stiff the bad things would be your wheel rate will be very high and you will feel this as a very stiff ride. Yes, swaybars can also do this if you hit a bump with only 1 front wheel. With a very high wheel rate you will also have a car with less "feel" to it when you're beginning to approach the limit. You'd be surprised how used to a little body roll we get and using that to help judge we're getting close to the limit. If you take that away you're now left just with judging the steering feel before you start sliding. If you push your car to that limit on the street (and I'm not advocating that by any means) you better hope you can react fast enough to keep your car on the street. You will have less warning before a slide with greater roll stiffness.

 

Maybe this topic should be continued under a new title. It originated as a SFC thread

SD

 

Yeah, back to them SFCs! They are the first mod I recommend to folks, especially with t-top cars. You need that extra stiffness with that set-up. Most folks are not too excited about rattles that develop without SFCs on these cars too.

I am not sure about any brands besides the SFCs I run, the KBDDs on my 4th gen and the Global Wests on my 3rd gen, however, there is a seat of the pants different feel with these. I could tell going out of the driveway of the shop that welded on my KBDDs. Also driving over uneven surfaces and really bumpy things like RR tracks there is a difference. Before SFCs the 4th gen would "hunt" and take a moment to correct with steering input. Now the bumps and ruts don't upset the car so much. Does a stiffer chassis affect handling? You betcha!

 

I found really cheap sway bar from 1997 Camaro SS with SLP (a level 2 front sway bar that was installed from SLP as an option through them). Is this good sway-bar for me??

 

its an upgrade over what you have so yea it will work, but its prolly a 32mm hollow bar. if you can get it cheap go for it. you can always resale it if you desire even more.

 

Sometimes you get what you pay for....

 

And sometimes you get more than what you pay for. Your point is?

Scyzoryk, keep in mind the sway bar will certainly give you less body roll, but you should pair it with a spring and shock upgrade to complete the package.

 

The point is the SLP bar is not much better than the stock bar. I've always like the largest bar I can add in the front which is why I'd go with the 35mm bar. And yes, you SHOULD pair it with a good spring/shock combo if you can afford it. But the bar by itself will make a world of difference.

 

Steve, we're just going to have to disagree here I guess. Keeping things simple here and not accounting for wall thickness or exact geometry on the SLP bar (since I don't know for sure what it is) going from a 30mm bar to a 32mm bar will increase your torsional resistance by almost 18%. Going from a 30mm to a 35mm bar will increase it by 37%. Personally, I don't like to make changes to my car in 37% steps, especially when most aftermarket springs out there increase your front spring rate by almost 100% anyway. It's WAY too likely you'll overstep the optimum combination for your car. Heck, 32mm bars are so cheap to find out there (I paid about $25 for mine) why wouldn't you try it first, especially if you have in mind to increase your spring rate anyway?

To sum up my experience, I went from a 30mm solid to the 32mm hollow 1LE bar and felt a very noticeable difference in turn-in response and body roll. I see no reason to go higher and almost didn't even step up from stock diameter. With some fine tuning of my front spring rates I will have a car that drives just the way I want it.

I would put this question to you and anyone else who cares to offer their opinion on this matter. If I'm not camber limited, which I'm not at -2 camber with stock control arms, and the GW arms are in my garage to be installed over the winter, and my handling is very neutral at road course speeds, why would I want a bigger, heavier, more expensive front bar?

It's very possible I'm missing something here, but until someone can kindly point out what it is, I have more important things to spend my money on, like getting weight out of this elephant.

 

There was a discussion recently on the Evolution discussion forum regarding 4th gen F-Body's and how they ARE camber limited. Much of the discussion was how some were resorting to methods and means that were illegal in ESP. So while you might have -2 camber, most F-Body's and especially stock ones, are extremely camber limited.

Herb Adams had a great discussion many years ago regarding the use of big bars vs stiff springs. I even have an old magazine article where one of his cars squared off against a Dick Gulstrand car and proceeded to out do it in every respect. One of Herb's statements was "Although there must be a limit, we have yet to see a production based race car with too much front roll resistence".

I agree it's all in the combination, no question there.

I use 500# springs and a 35mm bar. I love it. It give's me the right combination of roll stiffness and anti dive for my driving style and what I use my car for. What works for me not not work for someone else. My Koni shocks do such a great job of controlling the springs, that my ride is BETTER than what it was when it was stock.

For someone that doesn't race or autocross their car, a large front bar and good shocks work wonders. Look at all of the F Stock F-Body's and see what they use. EVERY one uses a 35mm front bar and great shocks and the cars work great. But the big bar is the key. It reduces roll, reduces roll steer, and provides quicker steering and turn in.

Most of these guys here aren't road racers like you. You do need a different setup and I'm certainly no expert on road race setups. But most of these guys spend 90% or more of their time on the street. The 35mm bar is the single most cost effective way to achieve the level of handling that they are looking for. Sure it adds a few pounds of weight (at a VERY low point on the car) but the handling benefits far out way the weight penalty.

edit - I've used a 30mm, 32.5mm hollow and 35mm and I can tell you which one I'd use again if I had to do it over..... 35mm