How much power is to much for a road corse car?
10-04-2006, 02:59 PM
#1
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How much power is to much for a road corse car?
I own a 96 LT1 that I want to make a procharged (F1) 383. Im aiming for 650+ rwhp, but i want it to be a road course car. Do you think this goal is to high that it wont be controlable on the track. I have no problem handling the power, and the suspension to the tranny will all be able to handle well over 700 rwhp.
10-04-2006, 07:06 PM
#4
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Re: How much power is to much for a road corse car?
Originally Posted by jmh96z28
I own a 96 LT1 that I want to make a procharged (F1) 383. Im aiming for 650+ rwhp, but i want it to be a road course car. Do you think this goal is to high that it wont be controlable on the track. I have no problem handling the power, and the suspension to the tranny will all be able to handle well over 700 rwhp.
To answer your question...yes, it will be a BIG problem.
If Jon A sees this he might respond. I would listen to him, as he has a fast roadcourse Camaro with about 370 rwhp...soon to be a little stronger, I hear.
Just curious. What transmission are you planning which will handle "well over 700 rwhp" in a road course situation? Transmissions usually are torque limited, not hp, and you are talking over 550 lb-ft @ power peak and maybe lots more at torque peak, where you'll be many times per lap.
Hey, you asked for opinions.
10-04-2006, 07:28 PM
#5
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Re: How much power is to much for a road corse car?
no offence taken, thats why i asked the questions. My biggest question is wheather to have a drag car or a course car. I guess with high numbers being my goal i mite as well go for a strip car huh.
10-04-2006, 08:13 PM
#6
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Re: How much power is to much for a road corse car?
A couple of issues come to mind--I agree you're getting ahead of yourself. Unless you have all the parts and are ready to head out to the garage and put them on right now, I'd hold off a bit.
Try and get to a driving school/racing school as soon as possible in your car just how it is now. Who knows, there's always a chance you won't like it (although I'd say that's unlikely). But if that's the case then you wouldn't need to worry about building your car with that purpose in mind. The chances are you'll have more fun than you ever dreamed your car, as it sits now, could ever provide you.
Also, I would really, really, really suggest you get some seat time before adding a bunch of power. I had autocrossed and run on roadcourses for around 8 years off and on before I did significant engine mods. Not that you have to wait that long or anything, it's just that a stock LT1 has more than enough power to be serious fun on a roadcourse--and get you into serious trouble....
Once you get on the track and see what it's all about, you'll see other needs are more pressing, things you might not have thought of when spending all your money on the engine. Safety items, brakes, suspension parts and cooling--you'll find the car lacking in these areas much more than it is in HP. Then extra wheels along with the tires, rotors and pads you'll be going through like underwear (even when you don't break anything).
In short, if that's what you want to do you'll have a much better idea of what is needed, what you want, what you don't want and what you can afford after doing it for a little while. This will help you spend your money better and build a car that is better suited to the task at hand.
As for the basic question of "How much power is too much?" There's no such thing!
The only problems come when you need to make compromises to get it. For example, I'd recommend staying N/A. The blower, intercooler and all the ducting adds a bunch of weight to the front end which is not good. It's exactly what you're trying to avoid.
Then you need to cool it. Even N/A you'll want a much bigger radiator and an oil cooler and a PS cooler.... The cooling requirements are nothing like you'll ever see on the street or drag racing. Even here in the NW we have days where the track surface temp will be 120 degrees--you're scooping that hot air off the track and trying to cool things with it. But the biggest factor is you aren't going at it for 10 seconds at a time. 20, 30 minutes at a time are common. Setups that will be just fine on the street may be completely inadequate as you are producing so much more heat with your foot to the floor 1/2 the time, and unlike drag racing nothing has a chance to recover between short runs--it has to be able to sustain the temps.
There's only so much air to be had at the front of the car that you can use for cooling. An intercooler is going to be taking away some of the water/oil cooling capacity, there's just no way around it though I certainly wouldn't run a blower without one. Blowers produce a bunch of heat by themselves so you have that much more to remove. If the intercooler can't keep up you'll eventually get heat soaked and risk detonation even with a conservative tune. You'll need to start off with a tune that leaves a ton of power on the table--like 50-100 HP from what you can get on a dyno--just to be safe. I would, anyway.
Of course anything can be done and this can be too. I'm just pointing out issues that make it much more difficult than running a blower on a street/drag car. It can be done, but one needs to really, really, know what he's doing or eventually he's going to pop some pistons. I'm of the opinion it isn't really worth it, especially when there are better head and intake options these days which allow making more power N/A easier than it used to be for these engines.
If you take all the money the blower and related stuff would cost and spend that much extra on your heads and intake, I think you'll be better off in the end. You might not make quites as lofty a peak number to brag about, but you'll easily have more than enough power to put a new Z06 to shame--if you learn to drive it--and it'll be much more simple, reliable and should live much longer.
But like I said, that's getting ahead of things. First things first--go to the track and see where that leads you.
Try and get to a driving school/racing school as soon as possible in your car just how it is now. Who knows, there's always a chance you won't like it (although I'd say that's unlikely). But if that's the case then you wouldn't need to worry about building your car with that purpose in mind. The chances are you'll have more fun than you ever dreamed your car, as it sits now, could ever provide you.
Also, I would really, really, really suggest you get some seat time before adding a bunch of power. I had autocrossed and run on roadcourses for around 8 years off and on before I did significant engine mods. Not that you have to wait that long or anything, it's just that a stock LT1 has more than enough power to be serious fun on a roadcourse--and get you into serious trouble....
Once you get on the track and see what it's all about, you'll see other needs are more pressing, things you might not have thought of when spending all your money on the engine. Safety items, brakes, suspension parts and cooling--you'll find the car lacking in these areas much more than it is in HP. Then extra wheels along with the tires, rotors and pads you'll be going through like underwear (even when you don't break anything).
In short, if that's what you want to do you'll have a much better idea of what is needed, what you want, what you don't want and what you can afford after doing it for a little while. This will help you spend your money better and build a car that is better suited to the task at hand.
As for the basic question of "How much power is too much?" There's no such thing!
The only problems come when you need to make compromises to get it. For example, I'd recommend staying N/A. The blower, intercooler and all the ducting adds a bunch of weight to the front end which is not good. It's exactly what you're trying to avoid.
Then you need to cool it. Even N/A you'll want a much bigger radiator and an oil cooler and a PS cooler.... The cooling requirements are nothing like you'll ever see on the street or drag racing. Even here in the NW we have days where the track surface temp will be 120 degrees--you're scooping that hot air off the track and trying to cool things with it. But the biggest factor is you aren't going at it for 10 seconds at a time. 20, 30 minutes at a time are common. Setups that will be just fine on the street may be completely inadequate as you are producing so much more heat with your foot to the floor 1/2 the time, and unlike drag racing nothing has a chance to recover between short runs--it has to be able to sustain the temps.
There's only so much air to be had at the front of the car that you can use for cooling. An intercooler is going to be taking away some of the water/oil cooling capacity, there's just no way around it though I certainly wouldn't run a blower without one. Blowers produce a bunch of heat by themselves so you have that much more to remove. If the intercooler can't keep up you'll eventually get heat soaked and risk detonation even with a conservative tune. You'll need to start off with a tune that leaves a ton of power on the table--like 50-100 HP from what you can get on a dyno--just to be safe. I would, anyway.
Of course anything can be done and this can be too. I'm just pointing out issues that make it much more difficult than running a blower on a street/drag car. It can be done, but one needs to really, really, know what he's doing or eventually he's going to pop some pistons. I'm of the opinion it isn't really worth it, especially when there are better head and intake options these days which allow making more power N/A easier than it used to be for these engines.
If you take all the money the blower and related stuff would cost and spend that much extra on your heads and intake, I think you'll be better off in the end. You might not make quites as lofty a peak number to brag about, but you'll easily have more than enough power to put a new Z06 to shame--if you learn to drive it--and it'll be much more simple, reliable and should live much longer.
But like I said, that's getting ahead of things. First things first--go to the track and see where that leads you.
10-04-2006, 08:35 PM
#7
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Re: How much power is to much for a road corse car?
Very respectable. I will take your advise. I also have been to a few ma and pop schools, and have a few races under my belt, but you never quit learning. Also i wouldnt be to disapointed if i made it a drag car becuase i ride motorcycles and get the rush off road racing everytime i go to the track with it. So i wont be missing out of the course aspect of racing.
10-05-2006, 10:06 AM
#9
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Re: How much power is to much for a road corse car?
Ya but thats just ENOUGH, not TO MUCH. LOL. I think im going to build a strip car. I have a motorcycle to road race. And my goal of 700rwhp is welded in my brain and thats what i want so strip car ity is.
10-05-2006, 10:28 AM
#10
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Re: How much power is to much for a road corse car?
I have also run a lot of RR sessions, my formula is 400rwhp N/A and it is plenty. More is always better but like Jon A. said all the money on the other odds and ends is what counts. The blower can be unreliable, yea you want to go fast but most of the cars on the roadcourse that I have seen with blowers, well sometimes don't last that long. You don't want to get there and have put all that money into your car and only get to use it a few times, whether it is a few sessions or events. Suspenion and brakes can gain you more a lot of times. I have ran with guys that can put massive car lengths on me in the straights, but when they have to brake and turn into the next turn I will lose site of them til I see them coming up on me in a long straight again.
Oh and an F1 what are you going to run 21 pounds of boost, talk about heat.
Oh and an F1 what are you going to run 21 pounds of boost, talk about heat.
10-05-2006, 12:00 PM
#11
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Re: How much power is to much for a road corse car?
Originally Posted by jmh96z28
I own a 96 LT1 that I want to make a procharged (F1) 383. Im aiming for 650+ rwhp, but i want it to be a road course car. Do you think this goal is to high that it wont be controlable on the track. I have no problem handling the power, and the suspension to the tranny will all be able to handle well over 700 rwhp.
10-09-2006, 12:18 PM
#12
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Re: How much power is to much for a road corse car?
Jon A has the best answer for you here. IMO short answer;
If you are experienced to handle a very high HP F-body around curves at highspeeds and know how to recover properly from a spin out, then I would say around 650 RWHP or so.
If you have never driven a 500+ RWHP F-body, and have only raced on a track a handfull of times, I would say just put on all the bolt ons to your LT1, and leave the motor alone.
Jon A is correct in saying a FI car builds a lot of heat, and that is a big deal especially having the harsh treatment a road coarse will take on it. You need more than power to have a superb road coarse car. Suspension setup, as well as an outstanding set of brakes and tires will play the biggest role. These are the things that will do much more for you on the road coarse than gobs of power.
If you are experienced to handle a very high HP F-body around curves at highspeeds and know how to recover properly from a spin out, then I would say around 650 RWHP or so.
If you have never driven a 500+ RWHP F-body, and have only raced on a track a handfull of times, I would say just put on all the bolt ons to your LT1, and leave the motor alone.
Jon A is correct in saying a FI car builds a lot of heat, and that is a big deal especially having the harsh treatment a road coarse will take on it. You need more than power to have a superb road coarse car. Suspension setup, as well as an outstanding set of brakes and tires will play the biggest role. These are the things that will do much more for you on the road coarse than gobs of power.
10-10-2006, 11:09 AM
#13
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Re: How much power is to much for a road corse car?
Just to show the difference that setup DOES make and power DOESN'T make, this weekend I was running up at Mosport International (http://www.mosport.com/roadhome.htm) with my Z28, and my instructor had an '06 Mustang GT.
My best lap time: 108.118 seconds.
His best lap time: 98.xxx seconds.
Me: ~317 rwhp, stock suspension, street tires.
Him: ~260 rwhp, "tweaked" suspension, Hoosier race tires of some sort.
My fastest speed: ~136 mph
His fastest speed: ~127 mph
10 second difference in time, yet my car should technically be the "faster" car
. Setup means A LOT 
.
But too much power for a road course??? Never!!!
My best lap time: 108.118 seconds.
His best lap time: 98.xxx seconds.
Me: ~317 rwhp, stock suspension, street tires.
Him: ~260 rwhp, "tweaked" suspension, Hoosier race tires of some sort.
My fastest speed: ~136 mph
His fastest speed: ~127 mph
10 second difference in time, yet my car should technically be the "faster" car
. Setup means A LOT .But too much power for a road course??? Never!!!
10-10-2006, 03:07 PM
#14
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Re: How much power is to much for a road corse car?
Capn Pete is correct as well. I few years ago my buddy and I autocrossed his Supra TT. He easily had the most powerfull car out there, and in the Supra's car class, he got the best time of the day, and I got the 2nd (also in his car). But the fastest time of the day went to a gutted 126 HP Honda Civic with full suspension and big brakes.
But when it came to the straight aways, there's never enough power to be had!
But when it came to the straight aways, there's never enough power to be had!
10-12-2006, 05:27 PM
#15
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Re: How much power is to much for a road corse car?
I have 400 RWHP in a gutted road race Camaro. It is MORE THAN ENOUGH for a beginner, and many seasoned drivers don't have/need more. Personally, I would like a few more to better keep up with the Vipers and other big $$ cars in my class.....
