I was just wondering how to fbodies handle compared to same year vette c4 or newer c5. How about compared to a 350Z or the new RX-8 or what about a 84 rx-7. I just trying to get a feel where are cars come in. What car handles better than our cars for under say 60k grand or so.


2.
I just got revalved Bilstein, does many peaple use these, I have just had them 2 days so I don't know how "good" they are yet, but I can tell arleayd the curves are much easier on the car and me now.

Thanks

 

Stock vs stock, the Corvettes will handle dramatically better. For under $60K, the 2004 Z06 would be my #1 choice for the best handling car. Any Z06 sticks like glue, but the revisions to the 04 shocks made for a dramatic improvement and allowed the 04 Z06 to lap the Nurburgrin in under 8 minutes. There is no other production car that I know of in that price range that can do that.

Now once we start talking about modified cars, the f-body is a very good platform. I was able to turn the same times in my modded 95 Formula as I could in my modded 92 Vette at our local roadcourse. Both cars had about the same HP (280RW on Formula, 270RW on Vette), and the Vette was maybe 100lbs lighter than the Formula. Both cars were setup with 17x9.5" front and 17x11" rears. The biggest difference between the two was that the Vette was much easier to drive at the limit than the f-body. Of course the Vette was pretty well maxed out on the suspension, while the Formula still had lot's of room for improvement left (had STB, rod end LCAs, rod end adj panhard, but stock brakes, springs, and SLP Bilstein shocks). I imagine with better springs and shocks the the Formula may have improved by a couple of seconds a lap and been easier to drive at the limit.

As a reference point, my 01 Z06 (worst handling of all the Z06s) was 5 seconds a lap quicker than either of the other cars on it's stock suspension! I've seen several articles where GM claims to have picked up a couple of seconds a lap over the 091-03 Z06 cars with the 04 shocks as well. Of course the Z06 is putting down 70RWHP more than either of the above cars, and is a good 200-300lbs lighter, has better brakes and is geared better (roughly equivalent to a 3.90 rear end). It'll be interesting to see what happens next year when I take the Firehawk to the track. Hopefully by the middle of the year it'll be putting down 330-350RWHP, and it'll be running 17x9 fronts and 17x11 rear with race rubber and have the C5 brakes.

 

i think my 85 RX7s handled better. i know my86 and 90 RX7s handled better. I know my 89 944 and my brothers 84 944 handled better.

All these cars handled better stock than my modded Z28, they didnt have quite the pickup as the Z28, but definitely handled better.

in fact i think my 93 legend coupe handled better than the Z28.

summed up, im a little disappointed with the handling , and ride quality of the Z28. I dont see 25 years of technical improvement over my 68 Firebird convertible. less rattles though.

 

I would disagree on the 944. My 86 944 Turbo did not handle anywhere close to the 95 Formula or 92 Vette. It was a fun car, but really much better as a street/cruising car than a race car. Of course, that was with the stock shocks, I'm sure if you put some Konis on it, it would have greatly improved the handling.

 

Thanks for the input.

My friend has a 1984 rx-7 with the big 13 inch wheesl.

I assume my 94 firebird could OUThandle that with 17's.

I just want to get a feel on how our cars handle on a whole to most other cars out there, I don't want to see a car try to keep up with it, and find myself in the OH crap, I shouldn't have taken this car etc.

With my new shocks it seems like the car is much better, waiting on my swaybar to ship.

So what cars have you had that you think handle better than the fbody. I wished fbodies weighed about 600 pounds less.

How much does a rx-7 weigh, I bet there light 2100??

 

LT
the only modification to my 89 S2 was koni yellows set in the middle. the car rode better, took turns faster, and generally felt like it was planted to the ground much better than my 93. I know its not all tires because i had three different sets (street, track winter) and the car was just more balanced. much more balanced.

i have bilsteins, which i (and a couple of real racers) believe to be better than konis in the camaro. maybe your 951 suspension was tired. then again, maybe my camaro's suspension is tired even though the car has 33k miles on it.

the first gen RX7s weighed about 2300lbs, my convertible tipped the scales at about 3200 lbs according to my registration.

 

Just check around and look at the results from various autocrosses. That will tell you exactly how they compare. You can see our local results on my web site.

 

You're comparing apples to oranges...

Let's be fair, the difference between a 944 or even an RX7, let alone a C5 is HUGE compared to a $20k car that weighs 3400 lbs. and has a solid rear axle.

Of course the argument can be made that your choice of parts maybe what you're disappointed in too. A not terribly modified 4th gen can run pretty much heads up with a Z06 on an autox course (less so on a track because of the power to weight). Clearly for a heavier car to be able to run with a lighter more powerful car, it must be able to handle reasonably well.

I'm not going to bad mouth any parts you have, you probably chose them for a reason. However, SLP springs are not the ultimate handling spring. They are a compromise (and not terrible ones for what they are intended to do). As for the shocks, "racers" may think what you have is superior to a Koni, but that's their opinion. I'm a racer, and even though I revalve Bilstein's to my own specs too, I'd never pretend they are vastly superior to the Koni's. Simply adding rebound damping will make the car feel much more nimble and tossable. You cannot do that, and added to the lack of other parts to compensate you can't begin to see the potential in the chassis.

It will always be live axle, and it will always be a big car. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Stock, they need help, you just haven't helped yours much. As poorly as stock 4th gens *can* drive, they make grip. Which also illustrates that those things that effect the transitions, like dampers are more critical than those things that effect steady state cornering.

 

I agree with Sam. I've taken a lot of people for rides since I've re-done my suspension (to Sam's specs) and they are all amazed at how well it handles. The fact that I can beat most cars out there tells me that they are very capable of keeping up with most any car. You can take a look at our local results to see how the F-Body's compare to everyone else.

Now, if Sam would just send me that T2R.....

Sam, question, Tommy might have already asked this. He sent me an email last night to get me to measure the height of my car compared to his (after his coil overs were installed). It appears my car sits about 1 inch lower than his. He said at his height, he is right at the bump stops. Could his DA's be the difference or is that a 98+ difference compared to the older 4th gens??

 

There is no difference between them. SA's and DA's are the same dimentions, you have the same coil-overs.

I think it's a difference in how y'all are measuring, and what tires are on the cars. And TP forgot to measure the car @ stock height on the street tires before he started.....

 

Last night we both measured from the center of the wheel to the top of the wheel well. I do have 275's, I can't remember what he runs for his street tires though.

 

Like Sam said, the right parts combination will make a huge difference in a 4th gen

not just night/day, more like another dimension!!

 

Sam,
I bought the car a month ago with 32k miles from the original owner with all the mods. While they looked good enough on paper I dont think he set it up right.

It may be the BFG Comp TAs on the car, but the rear just feels too stiff compared to the front. i have a set of dunlop winter sports ready to mount on 16" rims for the winter. im curious to see how it handles compared to the 17" BFGs.

i would have preferred bilsteins in the 944 but koni yellows were the best available short of a pure race shock/setup for the 944, and i didnt want to start changing springs and then getting into the torsion bars to get the balance back.

i havent driven a stock 4th gen which i would like to do to get a baseline. if you were less than 5 hours away i would drive the car to you to check out and see what i am talking about.

while the camaro may put down better numbers than the other cars, mine just doesn't feel balanced compared to the rx7s and 944 ive owned. im running the rears about 5lbs less than the front. it just seems like it doesnt want to hold on sweepers. i havent pushed the car hard yet since im still getting used to it.

For a car that cost less than half what the 944 cost new it is pretty impressive. just not as balanced, but then again it wasnt designed that way, and i knew that when i bought it (the 944 was stolen and the wife asked i not buy another porsche for a few years - she couldnt take the repair bills).
sorry for the rant.

 

Cars with DeCarbon's are the height of yuck (later ones are worse). I don't really have to drive it to see what you mean, I know what you mean. If you ask around, you'll see my primary mission to take care of the disconnected, soft, spongy, unsure feeling you can get. I don't disagree that while the numbers are good, the car might drive badly. That was my point, at least partially. The rest is that it can be fixed relatively easily.

It's not going to feel as balanced at this point. It's just not, and likely has a crappy alignment too.

It can be fixed.

 

when i was talking to the prior owner about the car he said he thought the rear was too stiff and would possibly put the original rear shocks in.

that didnt make sense to me so i called doug rippie and was told the bilsteins were revalved to his specs. my next question should have been - what were they revalved to work in conjunction with.

at rippie's suggestion i called bilstein and was told they revalve them for me if i sent them the shocks. i think that is a premature band aid approach. i have to live with the car a while longer, change the tires to see how the personality changes with the tires and then start to dissect the suspension.

Are the SLP springs relabeled eibachs?

i have to bug the P.O. for copies of his receipts so I know exactly what i have.