I can't speak for Sam, but NO, you don't want the 25mm rear bar for autocross (or anything except possibly drag). You can buy the front bar by itself from Sam.

I'm running the stock rear 19mm bar with the 35mm front. Depending on your suspension and tire setup, you MIGHT want the 21mm 1LE rear bar.

 

Yes, the ST "kit" is 35mm front, 25mm rear. No, I do not run the rear bar. Yes, I think it is way too huge. No, I don't want the car to be loose (looks and feels cool, but is slow). If you like a loose car, then that 25mm rear is the ticket to ride......

I was reading you sig, but didn't get a lot of pertinent info from it. I mention that only because there could be many factors that otherwise effect the balance of the car. For example, if you don't have anything done to the alignment, you are lacking front grip. Basically, I need to know what else is going on under that car. Shocks, springs, bushings, control arms, wheel/tire size and so on. Then we can make some bar choices. Don't want to just slap something on *****-nilly.... Rather think it out.

Going back, you asked what bars I run. It depends on what class I happen to be running in. On my F-Stock car I have the 35mm front and a 19mm rear. On ESP cars I generally run a 21mm, but depending on other things sometimes still run a 19, or even a 22mm rear bar. I know, it's probably more vague that you were hoping. But too many folks take internet info. and run, only to find they made a mistake later. That's why I spend sooooo much time on the phone so I know what we're trying to fix....

 

Thanks. The reason you might not have gotten much from my sig is because it's all stock uo until now. I'm putting DMS springs on it today and hopefully at least a 35mm front bar next week. I was hoping to get a set of revalved Bilstein HD's but that won't happen until at least next month. I ordered a set from Texas Speed here on the board because he said he had them in stock. Then he was just sending out the rears because he didn't have the fronts. Duh! So I refused delivery of them. They said that I'd get a full refund. Well 2 months later, I still have no refund and they won't answer the phone or emails. So that money is unfortunately tied up right now. I just left stock class because the Mustangs were just too easy to beat. I got Kumho VictoRacers now (245/45/16) so that puts me in prepared class. As far as alignment, I'm planning on asking for as much negative camber as they can get, otherwise stock specs. Do you have a recommendation for alignment specs too? I drive a lot and don't want to go too radical. Tires aren't cheap ya know.

*** Edit ***
PS - I know that driving opposite lock is slow. That's only in fun runs when I want to play a little. But it's nice to get a little bit of rotation every now and then too.

 

Are you racing with a SCCA club? Because tires don't move you out of stock class. BTW, that's the place the car is the most competitive for the least amount of money......

Your DMS springs will put you in E-Street Prepared, and if you ever travel away from your home region, you will run into cars that are a LOT faster in that class. Basically one mod (springs) will stick you in a class where good limited slips, 11" wheels, race seats, headers, intake work etc are all legal..... So make sure you know what you are getting into here.

As for the shocks: Bilstein HD's are not capable of handling any lowering spring adequately enough to make me happy (the Pro-kit is the only one close, but still borderline). That's why we revalve them or run Koni's. on the cars. Also autox is much more about shocks than springs. I revalve the shocks to be used with linear springs. The DMS's and most other springs are largely progressive, and being that shocks are really spring dampers, it's not possible to do a perfect shock for progressive springs.

Also springs and bars both add roll stiffness. If you run too much spring with too much bar, the car will do nothing but understeer. This is why even on full blown ESP cars I run a 500 pound spring with the 35. Guys with 550 or more I rather see on a 32mm bar. The suspension is a package. I have packages worked out for both F-Stock, ESP, and SM (largely the same as ESP).

I urge you to be wary of what you are doing. At this point your plan might get you in more trouble than it'll help you. The shocks in HD form aren't good with the springs. The springs aren't IMHO good for autox, and the bar won't like the springs or the shocks. FWIW

 

Actually, with that SS he never should have been in FS to begin with. He's in BS, and may even be pushed into AS for 2003.

So, I think 16x8 wheels actually do bump him to ESP even with no other mods.

That's probably just as well, though. AS/BS is just silly for the SS.

 

Okay you're on to me! I don't run with SCCA. I'm in a club that closely mirrors the SCCA but we tweak the rule book the way we feel like having it. I would have been in B Stock but we have a provision that let's me stay with the Z28's if I use 16X8 wheels. And for what it's worth, we call it GT Stock not F Stock but that's what everybody else is familiar with so that's what I say on here. I'm still legal with my club's rules and will remain in GT Prepared with springs, shocks, sway bars, adjustable PHB with rod ends, STB and race rubber. No Victoracers in stock class in our club. Everything has to be "stock".

 

do you need a new alignment after a front swaybar install?


Thx

 

No alignment needed. But I just added springs too. That's why I asked. I thought Sam might throw me a bone.

 

Sam,

You mentioned that the Bilstiens are not good with lowering springs - do you mean for race competition? I have HD's with Eibach Sportline's and find they work well for just street use which i am doing. I found them a big improvement over the pro-kit and factory shocks - i went to the sportline because i wanted the lower stance. I felt the Koni's were just too expensive for just street use.

 

No, I mean they are not optimal for any lowering spring. Your situation is unique and not really normal, so I'm not surprised you saw an improvement, but that doesn't mean that's all there is....

First you had Pro-kits which are stiffer than Sportlines are. And you had them on with the weak... REALLY weak stock shocks. So the combination wasn't a good one to start with and because the shocks are soooo bad it made the springs seem a lot worse. Ever notice how harsh and jumpy the rear end is with stock springs and shocks? It's because the stock shocks have a ton of compression, which doens't allow the axle to follow sharp bumps. And then the shocks have no rebound to stop the spring's stored energy afterward. Hence the floating around....

The Sportlines are softer than the Pro-kits, which helped the lack of rebound. The Bilstein's are markedly better than the stock shocks too, again a help. If you are happy with it, great. I have customers who simply cruise around and we have them on Pro-kits and HD's. However, Bilstein's are actually softer in certain areas of their damping curve than stock DeCarbon's are.....

 

I do remember that floating feeling in the rear - i hated that! That has lessened to very little - but i'm not sure how that would be on the track though. I would say i am happy overall with the set up for street use.

I actually spoke to Eibach, and they said the rears were the same rate as the Pro-kit, but the fronts were softer - but their good enough for me.

 

I have the 35mm/25mm ST combo, and I enjoy it. Yes, it does make for oversteer, but my Nitto DRs help counteract that fairly well if they're hot.

I only street drive the car so far, until I get shocks/springs from Sam, and an alignment; then I hope to take some road courses.

Potholes can be bad if they're big, but normal bumps aren't any worse.

I'd say go for it!

 

So... What are the DISadvantages of a bigger front swaybar? Oversteer? Understeer?

 

There are really only two disadvantages to the bigger bar:

1) It will be firmer on potholes. Highway seams or any bump that affects both wheels won't change, but any bump you hit with one wheel will be a little firmer. Reducing the front pressure will help some, but you'll still feel the difference.

2) It does put more stress on the subframe and brackets. I've never had a failure, but I've heard of several bracket failures with race tires.

It will improve both front AND rear grip if you keep the stock rear swaybar. The front is improved by better camber control, and the rear is improved (coming out of a turn) by reducing weight transfer to the outside rear tire, which helps keep the inside rear from spinning.

An oversize rear bar will cancel out the improvement at the rear, and maybe even improve the grip slightly more at the front. THis leads to the car being loose unless you run different tires front and rear.

However, for racing (other than drag) it's nice to be able to rotate your tires for better wear.

 

Thank for the info. I am planning on only getting the front. I have different size tires F&R though, so no rotation. Later,

Brian