I am looking for breaks for my Z. I plan on setting the car up for road racing later down the road but I feel my stock brakes are not cuttin it any more. Does anyone have Baer 4 or 6 Pot calipers or even the GT+ kit. Does anyone have the Brembo's or even the Wilwood 6 kit. What have you guys heard or what would you suggest is the best for the money. Are the wilwoods comparable to the baer or bremebo's. thanks

 

http://www.nashvillespeed.com

Yes, the site is still up

 

Before you spend money and time, I have a couple of questions:

1) What car is this and what mods does it have?
2) What aren't the brakes doing today that you want them to do with the upgrade?

The reason I ask is that a wise man once told me that if you gan lock the wheels (or invoke the ABS) with the current braking system, what will the new system do that the current one doesn't do?

Good question...

Sometimes upgrading the pads, getting better than stock rotors, and better fluid will go a long, long way... I did this in my old LS1 Camaro and was astounded by the performance of the "stock" brakes.

 

I have a 383 motor I am trying to get put together. I wand a road racer that can make trips to the rack but maintain my daily drivibility. I found a baer 4 piston kit that I think I am going to go with but I am not sure. I still am looking for more info from the people at camaroz28 and ls1tech. THanks

 

The only driveability issue would be the compound of pads that you use. Many people have pads for the street and another set of pads for the track (like me). In my case, the street/autox pads are Hawk HP+ and the track pads (paired with their own set of Brembo OE rotors) are Carbotechs.

Though I haven't used them on the street other than to/from the track since I also have the Hawks, the Carbotech Panther XP1109's that I have seem pretty decent at street temperatures. ...and they are great at track temperatures...

Still, I am wondering is this an LT1 brake setup or an LS1?

 

Well I think I am going to invest in a 4 pisont Pro + kit from Baer if all goes according to plan. Do you guys know any info about Baer that I should know before I get the kit. By the way I have a 97 LT1 Z28 that has been converted to an SS. Thanks and keep spittin more info my way. I appreciate it.

 

Now I understand. I have some seat time in LT1s and LS1s. The LT1s have some room for improvement in the brake department. My 95 Firebird (setup for road racing) has the stock rears and the LS1 front calipers, rotors (Brembo OE = about $60 each) and pads (Carbotech - about $175 a set). This is relatively inexpensive and works well... A front LS1 caliper costs about $50. How do I know? I just bought 2 new front LS1 calipers for my 'bird yesterday. They needed replaced on the 'bird and they'll go on later this week.

Here are pictures of the 'bird:
http://community.webshots.com/album/99139056uKfrSV

It it very easy to lock up the wheels with this easy, cheap setup on race compound tires (and no ABS). I don't plan on spending any more money on the brakes. What else would new brakes do? See my point? You may want to consider a simple LS1 front caliper replacement. It's cheap, works well, and it's easy to get parts for at any local auto parts store.

My opinion is to try the LS1 upgrade and spend the leftover brake money on the motor and suspension...

If you live within a reasonable drive of Pittsburgh PA, come by and try out the brakes on my 'bird. This would be the only way that you could know for sure that these would fulfill your needs. I honestly believe that they will.

 

I can lock up mine with stock LT1 brakes and Hawk + pads and 315 Hoosiers.

 

The biggest benefit in better brakes, is not nescessarily shorter stopping distance, but the ability to resist fade and have the same stopping power over and over again. The stock LT1 brakes with a good pad will probably stop almost as well as an LS1 system, but they will fade a lot easier than the LS1 system. The same is true of the LS1 versus C5 system, and the C5 versus bigger aftermarket system.

For the money though, I will be upgrading to the LS1 brakes on my Hawk. For around $250 shipped for a 12"x1.25" twin piston setup, you just can't beat it. The C5 system is only 1" larger diameter and uses the same caliper design (just slightly stronger due to pressure casting), but will cost $800+.

 

Exactly. There are two basic types of brake fade:

1) Pad Fade
This fade is where the pedal pressure doesn't change much but the pad's effectiveness is compromised due to too much heat. Good race pads should eliminate this assuming that they are bedded properly regardless of brand-name of caliper/rotor, etc. I have had this happen with Hawk HP+s on a road course. I switched to Carbontech and life was good again with the LS1 setup.

2) Pedal Fade
This occurs when the fluid boils. Since a portion of the fluid has transformed from a liquid to a gas, and gas is compressible, the pedal will have much more travel to yield the same braking result. Changing fluid often (since it gains moisture over time), and using a good fluid (I like Castrol SRF) should all but eliminate this. I have never had this happen and hope it never does.

Again, if you have repeatable results and can lock the wheels with the current braking system, you are spending money that could be better spent elsewhere... IMHO.

 

I personally love my C5 brakes.....hands down THE best mod I've ever done to my car.

Of course, I'm biased because I used to sell the kit, but the reason for that is I believed in the product.

 

I think there is some confusion on how brakes work?
Here's what I understand, please correct me if I'm wrong.. This is all the information and understanding I've gathered from reading and talking to people:


actually, you don't want to lock up your brakes.. coefficient of friction of a locked up slipping tire is much less than one of gripping and rolling tire.. In other words, if you are locking up your tires while braking, you are braking slower. Another way to look at is when your locking up your tires, you are converting your kinetic energy to heat, thru you tires and road.. Hence why you get a nice flatspot.


Basically, your brakes job is to convert Kinetic engery into heat, thru the interface of the rotors and pads. The more your braking you do, the higher the temp your pads and rotors gets.. This is why people getting bigger rotors and pads, to help disappate this energy over a larger surface of the pad, and into a larger heat sink (rotors).. Also getting different pads that work in higher temp ranges can dramaticaly help too.


The pads themselves have an operating temperature where they are most happiest to perform in.. Street pads have lower temps, so we can stop our cars rolling out of driveway on a cold night. Race pads have higher temp ranges, since they'll be only used on a track, where we'll be hitting the brakes and acceling aggressively for long periods of time. Thats why they don't work well when they are cold.. and on top of that, the way they are made, they chew up rotors, hence putting race pads on a daily driver isn't a great idea.


So when you get race rubber with better grip, you can transfer more of this KE to the brakes before lockup.. Once the tire locks up, you lose grip, card slides, tire flatspots because its now diong al the work in converting KE to heat.


Neat thing is KE = 0.5mv^2.. Since velocity is squared, the difference in velocity dramatically increases the work brakes have to do, more so than mass itself.. which explains why the differnce between 60-0 70-0 100-0 becomes so dramatic, and why after a high speed tripple digit stop, all that heat can kill a brake setup that normally only sees 70-0 stops. This heat contribs to pad fade and pedal(hydralic fluid) fade. I heard you can get StainlessSteel pistons for the C5 calipers to help reduce the heat transfer to the brake fluid, this helping prevent pedal fade.


So thats why I think alot of LT1's goto the LS1 style brakes, because the larger pad and thicker rotor? helps manage the heat.. Then the C5 upgrade on top of that adds a slightly bigger rotor for more leverage, and also a bigger heat sink. I think the pad area on the C5/LS1 calipers is actually pretty big, even when comparing to the fancier 4 pot brakes..


What I understand with the 4 pot brakes is they have an overall better designed/materialed caliper and slightly bigger rotor (C5 rotors are slightly under 13").. But since they have two pistons on each side, any movement and knocking between the caliper, pistons, pads, and rotors, is accomidated by pistons on the other side (vs LS1/C5 calipers only have two pistons on one side).. So the 4 pot calipers supposidly feel better, inspiring more confidence.


Anyways, for daily driving and autox fun, I like my stock ls1 brakes and HPS pads. I'm planning on doing the C5 front brake upgrade, more for the fun of it modding the car, but also hope that whenever I feel comfortable bring my Camar to a open track lapping day (aka, when I get another daily driver), it'll handle the extra stress better.. I'd love to have the really nice Brembo and Porsche brakes, but I think its overkill... especially with maintenace costs in relation to a daily driven Camaro.. plus the extra weight.....


EDIT: rereading what your said, I think I understand what you mean.. If you can brake repeatedly withotu fade, and still have the ability to lock up the wheels (meanign your able to use your tires to its fullest extent) then yea, I guess you can use your money elsewhere.. Perhaps the fancier calipers may give you better feel, which will make it easier to use..

 

Just to be clear. I was not saying that it is good to lock your brakes. I am simply stating that if you CAN lock up your brakes, they already exceed the grip of the tire/suspension combination. If this is the case and you get brakes with a higher clamping force, you'll also again be able to lock the brakes and exceed the grip of the tires/suspension but will not improve the braking ability of the car at all.

Beyond that, pedal/pad fade can rear it's head, but I have found that a good pad and good fluid can greatly reduce this as an issue with an LS1 setup...

I was trying to make a simple point without going into what braking represents from a physics standpoint. I hope that this came through...

 

... for about 850 bux, shipped, you can have the LT1 - Z06 front brake conversion. It comes with new aluminum adapter brackets and all new GM brake parts, including Hawk pads of your choice.

... or you could spend the additional bux for the name of one of those other kits you mentioned.

... drop me an email if interested and I'll get you hooked up.

 

With the C5 conversion, is it still a floating caliper? Honestly I have never seen a C5 caliper off the car