Grasshopper95Z

Hey everyone, I currently own a 1995 Z28. I'm 17 and paying for it myself, but I don't really want to spend all my money (which is very tight) on a car that isn't 100% perfect. It's also an auto and if I switch I'm definitely getting an M6. I was looking into getting an LS1 SS, probably a 98. However, I've been reading up on the live rear axle lately and it doesn't seem to be as good as a platform for performance as is the independent rear in Cobras and Vettes. What are the handling differences between an SS and a C5 Vette? What about an SS with all suspension mods?

You may be thinking, at 17 a Vette is far out of reach, but my car, with its low miles, clean record, flawless condition, and insane warranty is probably worth 10k. I make 15 dollars an hour after taxes at my job and I make about 300 extra per month selling random things on ebay. I could have a vette by graduation or an SS by this summer.

Decisions, decisions...help me out. I don't want to mod out an SS and have it handle worse than a stock vette. I'd feel very cheated.

LPEdave

It's all a continuum, though. The stock C5 will handle better than the SS, and the SS with the SLP suspension will handle better than your Z28. But why stop there? A stock Ferrari will handle better than that C5, and then you'd be eyeballing those TransAm or LeMans cars..... then F1

So I say (if you want my vote) get some track time in your Z28, and learn everything you can about driving the car on the track. At some point, you'll probably decide to upgrade, but I bet you're not going to get a F1 car, so you're going to make the decision based on what kind of motorsports you're into at the time, and what you can afford. Who knows, the best upgrade may be to get another set of tires for the Z28.

Dave

Larnach

The C5 will always handle better, but you must think... can the extra $25,000+ you have left over after getting the Z push it to the edge of a mildy modded C5... You could get it to work better than the C5. The stock weight of a Z28 is only about 90-100lbs more than a stock C5 Corvette, so its not a huge weight advantage. Trans Am cars run a solid rear axle and handle better than any C5 I have ever seen at a track day.

I contemplated getting a 99 C5 from a local dealer before I got the Z, but I soon realized the reality of it... at my age, even with a clean record and no accidents, insurance was well over $450, and the payments were around the $700 mark for 4 years. Right now I'm paying $330 a month in insurance (clean record too ) and $280 a month, I make about the same as you do after taxes too.

BMR Suspension components, fiberglass hood, Wolfe safety cage, lightweight wheels... maybe a mini tub for a 335 or 345 series rear tire, etc. etc. Dollar of dollar I think you will be happier with a Camaro. Parts will be cheaper, monthly payments will be cheaper so you don't have to mortgage your future away. I'm not much older than you, but there are things I want in life after I finish building my car... only $26,000 away but I guarantee that you will regret making those huge payments over the next several years when that money could have gone into your Z and made it handle pretty damn near to a C5 if not better, then just wax them with straight line speed.

</rant>

auto-Xer

I was in your position a while ago. I have a 96 z28 that I bought new. I was going to sell it and pick up a new C5. But instead, I decided I'd mod it, learn how it all works, and buy a new Jeep Wrangler to go all the places I cant w/ my Z28 (mountains to ski, places w/ speed bumps, etc). Also, you do piece by piece so the $$$ you spend is more gradual. Im not too afraid of totaling a $12k car over a $55k Z06. I actually just beat one this weekend autocrossing so Im pretty happy. Its kind of cool having a unique car too. You could even get the trans changed on the one you own (being in great shape, you know its history). Have fun w/ it

--Kevin

David_Dymaxion

Yes, a C5 handles better. But if you autocross, you'll race against other FS cars (usually other Camaros) if you stay stock. And if you'll occasionally beat a C5, that is always fun.

The other thing is I wouldn't race something I couldn't afford to crash. Good luck getting insurance to pay if you bang a curb during a race. I recently saw a guy go all four wheels over a curb. Ruined 2 rims, front suspension, and bent the frame. For me, doing something like this to a $55k Corvette would be a disaster. Doing it to my $10k Camaro I could probably financially survive. The repair would be cheaper in any case! At most $10k.

I suggest trying to max out the driver first, do 10 or so autocrosses (if you haven't already), and then decide. You'll probably be impressed what your Camaro can do.

Having said all that, you have my full sympathy, I want a Corvette, too! But I'd probably get an 84 (around $5 to $10k) and put a more powerful motor and 6 speed in it. I have seriously looked at the hatch area and thought, "I think my rugrats could fit back there... Yeah, yeah, this could be a family car!"

WOT

I'd get a beater for everyday driving. And spend the rest of your money modifying the Z28 to how you drive. You can have a great autocross or road race car and not have to worry about being stuck in abind if you break anything or get into a hurry when doing mods.

Lowend

Without a doubt the Vette has more potential than the F-body. I don't think anyone will argue that.
other than the $$ the downside of the Vette is that it plops you into some VERY nasty Auto-X classes (SS, BP, BSP) those are not good classes to be in as a beginner; read - you are gonna get stomped by some very hardcore guys with big $$ at their disposal.
That said - I'd love to trade my '95 Formula M6 for a 95-newer Vette, IRS is pretty hard to beat.

Ken S

What put this in perspective for me is, "if you wreck the car at a track, can you imaging STILL paying off payments for the next YEARS on a car you CAN'T drive?" I can't imagine doing that.


My personal plan:
My next vehicle would be a truck. My current Camaro would be more of a weekend fun/good weather driver and open track car. If I get more serious and actually want to compete in a roadrace, then.....who knows.


Holy cow! You make alotta money for a 17 year old!

CARGASM

As the owner of both, I think that you need to spend some time behind the wheel of the Camaro before you decide to go directly to the Vette for an answer. With all due respect, at 17, I would bet that you are no were near as good of a driver as you could be. Practice would help you with both your short and long term goals.

If I were to make a suggestion, I would say, do not spend another dime on the Camaro. Learn to drive it with all of its various weaknesses and it will make you a better driver in the end.

As for the C5, of course it handles better than the Camaro, thus the price premium. My C5's suspension and brakes are mostly stock and I do very well against the guys that I race, I would like to think that it is because I originally learned on a car that handled nowhere near as well. Life is all about progression; so don't sell yourself short by letting money make your driving look better than it really is.

good luck, Adam

Dr.Mudge

I'd go with the Vette, without a doubt. I make ~$26 an hour, and its out of my reach unless I want to put everything into one car, the sting of a ~$1000 a month (then mods, then insurance) car bill for 3 years is more than I want to deal with.

Dr.Mudge

Most of this "handling" will be your ability to drive, depending on the track there will be different optimum car setups for fastest times.

Keep in mind that Vette mods are $$$ compared to "cheap" Camaro mods. You can get an M6 now for your car now, instead of having to buy a whole other car.

If your lap times are going to be as much as 2 whole seconds slower, would you really feel that bad knowing your not $50k in the red after buying a Vette, and then replacing everything? You could consider a C4, which are reasonably priced, or wait for the C6 to come out which will drop the C5 down even further, but still, modding them costs alot of dough. On a quality track surface, I dont see that the times would be all that different, that your going to be getting lapped. Those that get lapped are going to be those out-classed in the experience department.

Another idea, if you could have a car that would be 800-1200 pounds lighter, but with just as much horsepower and wheel/tires, brakes etc, would you do it? If you really wanted a Supercar that is lightweight, its not going to come in factory form unless again, you end up ripping it totally to peices and throwing alot of it away. Older cars weigh less, although there is often an aero problem that needs to be fixed, and again replacing lots of parts, but you'd come out on top in terms of custom engineering and price.

But then again, you'd end up with a car so fast that it would be absolutely undriveable on a competitive level by someone without lots of experience, so again its not so bad to start out with a "slow" car on the track, not so bad at all. Nothing substitutes experience and thats a fact you just can't get around, except for those extremely rare stories you hear about, like a mystery man with no race driving experience, entering a race and winning all, in the RAIN, and later becoming a Porsche test driver, thats a one in a billion story.

2002Z28SSConv

You didn't say what your intentions are for this car. Road racing and autocross are somewhat similar but are really two completely different beasts.

Since I have mostly autocrossing experience, that's the advice I'll give. Buy an old Civic (88+). Gut the interior. Put race rubber on it with all the suspension mods you can find. If you can find one with an excellent motor and transmission, ratty interior and straight body with bad paint, you'll spend less than $5,000 and have a dependable, economical and quite competitive car for autocrossing. Also you'll have no choice but to learn how to drive. You'll have plenty of competition (more championship points) and you won't have to worry about tearing up an expensive car.

When you get more experience, after a year or so, go hog wild if you want. Keep this in mind too. A miata with a supercharger has a higher power to weight ratio than the C5, is lighter, cheaper and smaller. A translation follows:
higher power to weight ratio than the C5 = quicker acceleration
is lighter = nimble handling
cheaper = hopefully no translation needed
smaller = less manuvering necessary in tight courses

With a well-planned setup you could conceivably be getting top time of day awards in your first year.

C5's and the other large high HP cars seldomly see TTD awards in our local autocross clubs. But the smaller cars will have the disadvantage when you get a wide open course with long straights.

Summary --- For autocrossing think about going smaller. For Road racing go for power and balance (Z06).

Grasshopper95Z

Well, to cut costs down, how about a 1996 Vette with the LT4 engine? I hear they have 330 horses, so they'd be about equal to an LS1 Z28 in power. It also redlines at 5800 rpm, and I like rev-ability alot. I also hear they are about 200-400 lbs. lighter than a 98 LS1, depending on automatic or manual.

*Puts flame suit on* I'm the kind of guy who likes the appearance of modded Supras, S2000s, Skylines, and the like. I like how they have so many aftermarket parts available that the car becomes completely unique. I think the mod-ability with an LS1 SS would probably be better than a 1996 LT4 Vette, right?

Hmmm....

Dr.Mudge

The LT4 redline is higher than that, the LT1 is 5900 RPM IIRC, the LT4 roller rockers put it in a land where redline was set I believe at 6200 or 6300 RPM, the powerband is not going to look the same as an LS1 though, and there is no reason you can't make that power with an LT1 either, or easily more.

I to some degree agree with the above post however, if you really really want to be competitive on an inexpensive level, forget modern cars, and big expensive ones at that. My current fun project is a 72 240Z, with a bigger engine, better trans, and some other junk, these can be turbo charged or left NA and will be easy 13 second cars with "little" work, and being lightweight will be better on brakes and not have to slow down when bigger heavier cars do. The car comes in at about 2200 pounds stock, and in stock form makes about 151 HP, which is about a horse per cube (2.4L stock). Certainly nothing to write home about in that department, but basically you could look at it as an old Miata I suppose, just cheaper, and smog exempt You will not find many newer cars other than the Miata that are that light, into the 80s most cars were 2700 pounds or more.

I'll probably be using a Typhoon/Syclone computer, and a turbo setup, and aim for moderate power levels with the car (something that runs on our crappy pump gas). The car has 15x7" wheels on it right now, with 225/50 tires, if you do the math thats about a 345 wide tire on all four corners on a 3400 pound car. I can't really put more than a 16x8" under the car without fender flares, but that too can be done. I've seen a car with 17x11" and 17x9.5" GM wheels under it (front/rear C4 suspension), at about 2000 pounds even, and around 500 HP (V8), I'm not recommending that but it can be done. With street tires and about the same size tire I'm using, people are pulling a little over 1.2g lateral, this is again without race tires and no interior stripping. The car and all the goodies I payed $700 for

It takes a driver to make a car competitive, stick a rookie in a car like that and it will not be driveable, as it will be much faster than the driver

Anyhow, its easy to spend money, but if you truly want to have a fast car, and an embarrasingly fast one at that, feel free to open your eyes and be creative! I feel that there are several major advantages in using a true lightweight sports car platform, versus a heavier 'supercar' type, easier on parts, easier on the wallet and more.

The Porsche 914 is another one I considered, but its even smaller (I'm 6'2" 234) and if I wanted to stick a V8 in one, it requires somewhat expensive modded and beefed up Porsche transaxle, where as with a Datsun 510 or Z is still a front engine (RWD) car, so a V8 and 6 speed can be used at less overall cost and fabrication.

Dr.Mudge

Do they not look great or what?

http://240z.jeromio.com/images/snewWheels3.4rear.JPG

http://240z.jeromio.com/images/newWheels3.4rear2.JPG

This car has an LS1/T56 setup
http://240z.jeromio.com/motorswap/