stangkilla1

What is a cheaper (more widely used form) of vacuum bagging a carbon fiber part. I dont have $19,000 for an autoclave so I want to know how the DIY-ers are doing this to get proffesional results. I really need help on this guys.

Remember my first Carbon post? Well I'm dead serious, and buy mid-spring should have something to start selling. It might be the dash kit or it might be the other top secret piece that I'm designing. I still cant tell ya, cause it's so obvious, someone will surely steal the idea (then I gotta find out where u live lol). Anywayz help me to help Cz28.com, cause I'm still holding to my promise. A few members will get some items for FREE!!!

(Dont start askin, cause I already got a list of the people) But Cz28 members will not have to bid on Ebay, and will get 30% off any piece or kit.

lownslocamaro

When I was building $100 million dollar yachts in Georgia, we would use vacuum bagging exclusively. It really depends on what you are trying to do. Is this a product that requires strength, or are you simply doing something to look good? We would use it mostly for vacuum infusing halfs of the hull. For those who don't understand infusion, imagine a big bucket of resin on one side of the mold and a big vacuum pump on the other. The mold is layed with glass, carbon, foam core, mesh, etc., all dry, and covered with a giant bag, the vacuum pump sucks the resin through the part leaving a part free of voids and much lighter. The real reason this technology is popular is because it is more environmentallly friendly. But explain what you are doing because "vacuum bagging" can mean lots of things. On a smaller level, I've bagged skateboards and kite boards using foam, carbon, and very small pumps.

stangkilla1

I'll be making cosmetic carbon fiber parts like dash kits, amp racks, interior panels etc.. I'll be making each reproduction part from fiberglass molds, cutting each carbon fiber sheet to size and curing it while on the mold.
After I make the 10-12 molds of the dash kit and other pieces, I want to be able to mass produce them with no problem.

So vacuum bagging helps the resin to "soak" into the carbon fiber weave? Giving it that "2 inch deep gloss" look? I was told that I could just lay the carbon on the mold, coat it in resin, sand it, and recoat it one more time to give it a deep gloss.

Any more advise would help, I want to be able to make money from my kits, but I also want it to be as high quality as a DIY-er can make it. I've never done a half-a**ed job.

stangkilla1

(off topic)

Those boats had to have been in myrtle beach or Hilton head huh? yea, I would have loved to sub-contract those jobs lol!!

lownslocamaro

We were building the boats in Savannah, right down the road from you for a company called Intermarine. I would not bother using vacuum infusion or any sort of bagging technology for your application. The super deep gloss acheived when making carbon fiber pieces is through clear gel coat and some times clear urethane top coat.

You have a perfect mold, after you apply your mold release(for this application, a chemical realease like Chemlease is better than wax) you can spray a catylized clear gel coat in the mold, real thick(4mils), allow it to cure, scuff it, then lay your carbon in there with a simple polyester or epoxy resin. After you remove your part, you will have to do a little sanding and polishing but you will get that super deep, wet look. The amount of sanding and polishing all depends on the surface of your mold, it should be perfect. This is how the import parts manufactuers make their hoods. It is all hand laid stuff.

Thats if you want to do it that way, if your production is going to be limited, you can simply skip the gel coat part and pull your carbon/resin piece out of your mold and coat it with clear urethane. Ever look at the bar in a restaurant and see how thick the varnish looks? The usually block off the edges and pour that stuff on there, it settles out, and you have that super deep wet look. The issue with this is it drys slowly and you will get some dust in your final coat, but you can sand and polish.

I would reccommend using the clear gel coat in your molds. Remember, the better your molds are, the better the parts are, also, use a high quality clear gel coat, find something online, stay away from "tooling" gel coats and whatnot, that stuff sucks, find something with UV inhibitors. Do you have a buget for this, its going to be expensive, 10 yards of carbon fiber is a good amount to start.

stangkilla1

Whew!!! thats alot to take in, but you explained it flawlessly. I'll go with your first suggestion and the gel-coat method. It's a relief to know that I dont have to contend with bagging the parts, the extra time it will take to let the gel-coat cure will be worth it. Ok, so I guess this is the whole process in a nutshell:

1) Take OEM parts out of both camaros
2) make fiberglass molds
3) Cut carbon fiber to fit
4) Apply release agent in the mold
5) Apply gel-coat (and allow to cure)
6) Lay in carbon sheet
7) Apply resin/hardener mix
8) Allow to to cure, sand and recoat
9) Done!! package and ship!! Let me know if I left anything out.

But what should I coat the final fiberglass molds with? paint or other coating? (last question I swear lol)

I really appreciate the info (I mean really), It's like i just found out the "missing link" of a new puzzle. Since your logged on to Cz28.com please drop by my page and leave your email add. in my G-book (that way I know it's you) or hit me up at richierich_33@hotmail.com so I can keep you updated on my progress and throw some free stuff your way when it's all done. I'll also be buying OEM 93-97 panels too!! I figure it takes money to make money right? I also produce, write, create music and had about 300 CD's pressed just to give away. I dont look at things like giving them away, but rather getting exposure.

Oh yea, I'll be buying about 7 yards of Carbon in about 5 minutes (soon as I leave this board) from Ebay, I needed to check back here and see what you said (I listen to people who have knowledege) before I made a purchase. first molds will be 7 pieces from the 2000 camaro and all dash pieces from my 86 Z28, plus whatever else I find on ebay.

lownslocamaro

Glad I can help, just to add to your list a little:
1) Take OEM parts out of both camaros
A:Smooth texture out of OEM parts, prime parts(If you don't use a catylized primer, the mekp from the gelcoat will melt the plastic) OR very cleanly apply aluminum foil to parts with spray adhesive. Foil makes an excellent surface to mold. This part is called the "PLUG" you want the surface to be exactly like your final part.
2) make fiberglass molds
A: When you make these molds, take your smooth OEM parts, apply release agent, gel coat the mold using a tooling gel coat, let cure, scuff, apply a skin coat of chop, 2 1.5 oz coats followed by the thick stuff, whatever you can get your hands on, the thicker the better, you don't want any flexibility in your molds! I assume you know the critical importance of DRAFT ANGLES! You want to be able to remove your parts!
B: Remove PLUGS from your molds. Prepare molds. You will have to clean them up a bit, remove anything that transfered from your plug to your mold. You will also half to polish the mold a bit, is should be smooth and shiny. This is critical, any imperfection in your mold will transfer to your part, and you can't bondo or fill chips/scratches in these parts!
C. Your molds should also sit level to the ground so nothing slides around when you are laying it up.
3) Cut carbon fiber to fit
A: Very carefully, since you will see the carbon, you don't want to stretch it in anyway, you also need to decide how you want your weave to look on your parts( direction, etc.). You might want to add some fiberglass chop behind the carbon for a bit more strength/thickness. It depends on what you are doing.
4) Apply release agent in the mold
A: Should be so incredibly slick, we use to sit at the top of the mold of the hull, at the bow, slide down, and go like 50 ft at least, when wearing a Tyvek suit! What a ride.
5) Apply gel-coat (and allow to cure)
A: Maybe 4mils, good quality, clear gel coat.
6) Scuff, Lay in carbon sheet
A: Carefully! Don't stretch it!
7) Apply resin/hardener mix
A: Use quality resin and fresh MEKP, 1.5% or 2% at most, use a measure cup and mix well. Apply with paint brush for small parts, and paint rollers for larger parts, You don't want it to be resin rich, it should be wet but no puddles of resin or anything like that. You won't have to rib roll anything this small
8) Allow to to cure, Remove parts, should pop out, clean, and do a little polish, and that should be it!
9) Done!! package and ship!!

The importance of thinking ahead when making your molds is critical, if you are going to try and make money at this, by all means design your molds first, use CAD if possible. You need to allow for draft angles, we would often make tabs to allow us to pull the parts easily, make sure there are no negative draft angles, and make sure you figure out a way to mount the pieces if you are replacing the originals. There is more, lots more, but its going to be a learning experience for you.

Patrick

v7guy

lownslocamaro covered it pretty well, like him I cannot stress enough the importance of making sure that your molds are flawless, and take care of them, just to be sure make sure you prepare them after every couple of pieces to make sure they stay smooth.

It doesn't sound like you are going to be doing large pieces, but keep in mind that if you are doing larger pieces they will want to warp, there are vacuume bagging techniques for hood sized objects that basically involve using a clay around the perimieter of the mold that a heavy "bag" seals to. The bag is basically just a heavy sheet of clear plastic with a valve on it, after the piece is layed out you lay the bag down and seal it, you can use a shop vac to pull a vacuume on it adn this keeps the piece planted down firmly in the mold as it dries so that it doesn't warp. I wouldn't worry about this at all with smaller pieces but starting at the size of an entire console or a sail panel I would start to consider it as an option

lownslocamaro

I haven't seen parts warp during the curing process but almost everything I've done has included a core of usually foam, and the hottest we ever mix is like 1.5% MEKP. Don't forget that the vacuum bagging itself can warp not only the mold too, it can definately twist the mold a bit, I've heard of large boat hulls sucking in more than an inch when under vacuum. I've never done any bagging with a shop vac though, the vacuum setups I've used can pull like 20 inches of mercury. The clay compond you refer to is "Sticky Tape." They sell it at Wal Mart for attaching poster to dorm room walls where you can't put hangers. It obviously has other industrial uses.