write ups On Using Epoxy for Head porting
06-09-2004, 10:15 AM
#1
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write ups On Using Epoxy for Head porting
Im placing this in the Advanced Tech because i want the most knowledgable people explaining aspects of epoxy in the application of head porting. Plus many people havent heard of using epoxy for head porting.
Ive only found one thread that touched on using epoxy. Basically it was not recommended for street applications. Mindgame stated that it is notorious for falling out and Llyod elliot expressed his concerns with it as well.
I have the choice of using epoxy on my heads. But I am not willing to use it if i feel it will not last years. It will not be worth damaging my forged 355.
So im am curious if anyone done heat tests on epoxy to see how it holds over time or if anyone has used it in a street application and how long it lasts.
Also links to any write ups would be nice.
Ive only found one thread that touched on using epoxy. Basically it was not recommended for street applications. Mindgame stated that it is notorious for falling out and Llyod elliot expressed his concerns with it as well.
I have the choice of using epoxy on my heads. But I am not willing to use it if i feel it will not last years. It will not be worth damaging my forged 355.
So im am curious if anyone done heat tests on epoxy to see how it holds over time or if anyone has used it in a street application and how long it lasts.
Also links to any write ups would be nice.
06-09-2004, 11:22 AM
#2
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I would be most concerned about the large temperature range certain areas of a head experience compared to what an intake manifold sees. The coefficient of expansion of the filled epoxy and the head material need to be very close or the continual heating and cooling may loosen the epoxy.
Epoxy compounds without metal fillers generally are designed for continuous temps of 250 F or so. Super high-temp aluminum filler epoxies can take 1400 F, however!
If you were to use it like a dentist fills a tooth, by undercutting the cavity you are trying to fill to insure a mechanical as well as "sticky" bond, and you select the correct material, you might very well get away with it. Of course, welding in aluminum (assuming we're talking about aluminum heads) takes the uncertainty out of the equation, and it's not all that expensive.
IMO, the bottom line for using it is do you trust your head guy to use the good stuff @ about $60+ per pint, undercut all the filled areas, and keep the section thick enough so it doesn't peel off on feather edges? Has he done many other successful street applications?
I would also strongly factor in LLoyd Elliott's concerns.
My $.02
Epoxy compounds without metal fillers generally are designed for continuous temps of 250 F or so. Super high-temp aluminum filler epoxies can take 1400 F, however!
If you were to use it like a dentist fills a tooth, by undercutting the cavity you are trying to fill to insure a mechanical as well as "sticky" bond, and you select the correct material, you might very well get away with it. Of course, welding in aluminum (assuming we're talking about aluminum heads) takes the uncertainty out of the equation, and it's not all that expensive.
IMO, the bottom line for using it is do you trust your head guy to use the good stuff @ about $60+ per pint, undercut all the filled areas, and keep the section thick enough so it doesn't peel off on feather edges? Has he done many other successful street applications?
I would also strongly factor in LLoyd Elliott's concerns.
My $.02
06-09-2004, 01:37 PM
#4
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Yes I did and still do.
In an intake manifold, especially a wet intake, the stuff can live a long life but I've seen guys lose engines using it in intake ports. That said, I cannot know the preperation, or lack of, used in these cases. So take it for what it's worth..... I'm just a spectator here.
As mentioned, aluminum moves around alot so you'd need an epoxy with very similar expansion characteristics.
Maybe Larry Meaux has some experience with this and will chime in.
-Mindgame
In an intake manifold, especially a wet intake, the stuff can live a long life but I've seen guys lose engines using it in intake ports. That said, I cannot know the preperation, or lack of, used in these cases. So take it for what it's worth..... I'm just a spectator here.
As mentioned, aluminum moves around alot so you'd need an epoxy with very similar expansion characteristics.
Maybe Larry Meaux has some experience with this and will chime in.
-Mindgame
06-09-2004, 02:23 PM
#5
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I do trust the guy whos looking at doing the heads for me but i dont trust the epoxy. I dont like the idea of any filling having the possibilty of falling out over time.
I 1st bought these moderately ported heads with bigger valves from lloyd and was very happy with them but since i blew up the engine and the heads are off I'd like to squeeze more CFM's and velocity out of them. It'd be nice to fully port the heads and start adding epoxy back and testing the velocity flow. That way i can find the max velocity and max CFM flow of the heads.
Instead i may just have my guy smooth out the ports and polish the exhaust side. I bought these heads for a killer price and i could see where lloyd could have touched up alittle bit on the heads if he wanted to like he does on his more expensive line of head port jobs.
I 1st bought these moderately ported heads with bigger valves from lloyd and was very happy with them but since i blew up the engine and the heads are off I'd like to squeeze more CFM's and velocity out of them. It'd be nice to fully port the heads and start adding epoxy back and testing the velocity flow. That way i can find the max velocity and max CFM flow of the heads.
Instead i may just have my guy smooth out the ports and polish the exhaust side. I bought these heads for a killer price and i could see where lloyd could have touched up alittle bit on the heads if he wanted to like he does on his more expensive line of head port jobs.
06-09-2004, 02:26 PM
#6
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all the NHRA SuperStock heads i port have epoxy in them
i port Chrysler 318/340/360 heads over 37+ CCs, then have to go back and put in 37 cc worth of epoxy to make the heads Legal
totally reshape the intake ports with epoxy, a 360 will make 398 HP with heads w/only NHRA 3-Angle valve job
after drastic rework with porting and epoxy, same exact valve sizes, port volumes, CR, shortblock...these heads make 550+ HP
went from 11.22 ET to 10.57 ET @ 3570 lbs
these Chrysler SS 318/340/360 live or die by epoxy mods !!
as a side benefit, the BSFCs are much better, and require a lot LESS jet ! there are no more dead areas inside the intake ports and a bunch less fuel/air separation
Tom and Harry Sheehan just won with my heads/intake
MAPLE GROVE “CARS” SPRING NATIONAL OPEN – Presented by SONY/PCRICHARD.COM RESULTS
in
SUPER STOCK:
Champion:
#1046 Tom Sheehan Newell, PA
’00 Sebring .017 10.151 130.45
10.151 ET@130.45 MPH ..with 318 cid Chrysler engine
with a ton of epoxy inside the intake ports
same way with Intake Manifolds; usually use epoxy to extend runners a little in plenums..or sometimes use epoxy to drastically lengthen runners in custom Sheet Metal Intake Manifolds.
i mostly use KopCoat or ZSpar Slpash Zone epoxy with Devcon 2-Ton Clear as a sealer ontop of the KopCoat
you have to use 2 electric space heaters and preheat and post heat heads as you work with epoxy...as well as use correct carbide teeth burr to roughen and prep for epoxy.
i also use AB Sticks from Martin Carbone (orig. Chemist ?)
same as Manley or Moroso, etc.
again using Devcon 2-Ton Clear as sealer
the KopCoat has more "stick" than the AB sticks, but harder to mix and use.
if its NHRA legal...
you can use 1/4 NC Button head bolts from underneath thru intake ports so epoxy has something to hold on to ?
i port Chrysler 318/340/360 heads over 37+ CCs, then have to go back and put in 37 cc worth of epoxy to make the heads Legal
totally reshape the intake ports with epoxy, a 360 will make 398 HP with heads w/only NHRA 3-Angle valve job
after drastic rework with porting and epoxy, same exact valve sizes, port volumes, CR, shortblock...these heads make 550+ HP
went from 11.22 ET to 10.57 ET @ 3570 lbs
these Chrysler SS 318/340/360 live or die by epoxy mods !!
as a side benefit, the BSFCs are much better, and require a lot LESS jet ! there are no more dead areas inside the intake ports and a bunch less fuel/air separation
Tom and Harry Sheehan just won with my heads/intake
MAPLE GROVE “CARS” SPRING NATIONAL OPEN – Presented by SONY/PCRICHARD.COM RESULTS
in
SUPER STOCK:
Champion:
#1046 Tom Sheehan Newell, PA
’00 Sebring .017 10.151 130.45
10.151 ET@130.45 MPH ..with 318 cid Chrysler engine
with a ton of epoxy inside the intake ports
same way with Intake Manifolds; usually use epoxy to extend runners a little in plenums..or sometimes use epoxy to drastically lengthen runners in custom Sheet Metal Intake Manifolds.
i mostly use KopCoat or ZSpar Slpash Zone epoxy with Devcon 2-Ton Clear as a sealer ontop of the KopCoat
you have to use 2 electric space heaters and preheat and post heat heads as you work with epoxy...as well as use correct carbide teeth burr to roughen and prep for epoxy.
i also use AB Sticks from Martin Carbone (orig. Chemist ?)
same as Manley or Moroso, etc.
again using Devcon 2-Ton Clear as sealer
the KopCoat has more "stick" than the AB sticks, but harder to mix and use.
if its NHRA legal...
you can use 1/4 NC Button head bolts from underneath thru intake ports so epoxy has something to hold on to ?
06-09-2004, 02:44 PM
#7
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Location: In a house by the bay
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There ya go, the voice of experience.
A big congratulations on the SS championship win Larry. Very impressive.... very competitive class too.
ZDriver,
From what I gather of you post... why not just use clay to fill in areas, test modify and retest? Seems to me it would be alot less trouble than messing with an epoxy.
Then when you decide on what you're after, send them to someone who knows what materials to use and how to prep the intake. Read... somone like Mr Meaux.
-Mindgame
A big congratulations on the SS championship win Larry. Very impressive.... very competitive class too.
ZDriver,
From what I gather of you post... why not just use clay to fill in areas, test modify and retest? Seems to me it would be alot less trouble than messing with an epoxy.
Then when you decide on what you're after, send them to someone who knows what materials to use and how to prep the intake. Read... somone like Mr Meaux.
-Mindgame
06-09-2004, 03:02 PM
#8
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Abbeville , LA
Posts: 291
There ya go, the voice of experience.
A big congratulations on the SS championship win Larry. Very impressive.... very competitive class too.
================================
Thanks
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Sheeh..._640x480_3.jpg
http://www.nhradiv1.com/apcm/templat...=859&zoneid=12
even with a lot of experience with using Epoxy...it can sometimes still loosen up ! using 2 electric space heaters , correct roughing carbide burr, surface prep, using Dupont 3608S laquer thinner as cleaner and thinner as small amount of epoxy smoothing agent is critical !
the head and the the curring epoxy have to "heat" and "cool" down together !
then the next trick is to seal with very thin film of Devcon clear
especially in corners between epoxy and port walls
A big congratulations on the SS championship win Larry. Very impressive.... very competitive class too.
================================
Thanks
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Sheeh..._640x480_3.jpg
http://www.nhradiv1.com/apcm/templat...=859&zoneid=12
even with a lot of experience with using Epoxy...it can sometimes still loosen up ! using 2 electric space heaters , correct roughing carbide burr, surface prep, using Dupont 3608S laquer thinner as cleaner and thinner as small amount of epoxy smoothing agent is critical !
the head and the the curring epoxy have to "heat" and "cool" down together !
then the next trick is to seal with very thin film of Devcon clear
especially in corners between epoxy and port walls
06-09-2004, 04:36 PM
#10
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Abbeville , LA
Posts: 291
Originally posted by Lonnie Pavtis
Did you also do the port work on Sheehans older BB Chevy engines? Saw some of these at Harry's shop & they were impressive to say the least.
Did you also do the port work on Sheehans older BB Chevy engines? Saw some of these at Harry's shop & they were impressive to say the least.
i guess Harry's holding out on me ??
Harry's got my latest design intake port (5th design)
and i'm working on a brand new 6th design pair of Chrysler 318 heads for him at the moment .
the 1st design made 533 HP at 6500 on 360 cid SS
the 4th design made 551 HP at 7000 on 360 cid SS
1.880" int valve 1.600" exh valve
all 5 intake port designs basically flow the same numbers with same exact port volumes...just the different designs handle wet flow better and port velocity ..and it shows up at the DragStrip
Last edited by MaxRaceSoftware; 06-09-2004 at 04:46 PM.
06-09-2004, 06:10 PM
#11
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Location: Montville, NJ, U.S.A.
Posts: 661
How do you guys feel about epoxy being used for intake manifolds, in particular an LT1 or LT4 intake that will see lots of street use. I am currently having an LT4 intake ported, which also has been welded by the injector bung area, that my builder broke through in a couple of spots. He would rather us a little epoxy on the outside to cover up the few little pinholes where he broke through, instead of welding as his fear would be that welding again on top of already thin areas would cause the wall to warp, burn through or cave in. They have used it in the past before with no problems, but I would like to get some other opinions or thoughts on this, thanks.
Nick
Nick
06-09-2004, 06:21 PM
#12
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Location: Perryopolis, Pa
Posts: 520
Originally posted by MaxRaceSoftware
No..just Chrysler work so far
i guess Harry's holding out on me ??
No..just Chrysler work so far
i guess Harry's holding out on me ??
Originally posted by NJLT1SS
How do you guys feel about epoxy being used for intake manifolds, in particular an LT1 or LT4 intake that will see lots of street use. I am currently having an LT4 intake ported, which also has been welded by the injector bung area, that my builder broke through in a couple of spots. He would rather us a little epoxy on the outside to cover up the few little pinholes where he broke through, instead of welding as his fear would be that welding again on top of already thin areas would cause the wall to warp, burn through or cave in. They have used it in the past before with no problems, but I would like to get some other opinions or thoughts on this, thanks.
How do you guys feel about epoxy being used for intake manifolds, in particular an LT1 or LT4 intake that will see lots of street use. I am currently having an LT4 intake ported, which also has been welded by the injector bung area, that my builder broke through in a couple of spots. He would rather us a little epoxy on the outside to cover up the few little pinholes where he broke through, instead of welding as his fear would be that welding again on top of already thin areas would cause the wall to warp, burn through or cave in. They have used it in the past before with no problems, but I would like to get some other opinions or thoughts on this, thanks.
Last edited by Lonnie Pavtis; 06-09-2004 at 06:32 PM.
06-09-2004, 08:13 PM
#14
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Location: Abbeville , LA
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ZDriver96,
Martin Carbone also sells 5 minute AB Epoxy Sticks for headporters to make quick mods and quick re-Flow test of heads w/ those mods...but i wouldn't leave that stuff in a head on a real engine.
it looks exactly like his regular or Moroso/Manley AB Sticks
but i don't think he sells directly to the Public
Martin Carbone also sells 5 minute AB Epoxy Sticks for headporters to make quick mods and quick re-Flow test of heads w/ those mods...but i wouldn't leave that stuff in a head on a real engine.
it looks exactly like his regular or Moroso/Manley AB Sticks
but i don't think he sells directly to the Public
06-09-2004, 10:21 PM
#15
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Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 771
theres this stuff at autozone that i used before, its two part putty that gets pretty hot when mixed together, but seemed to work it expensive thow I think it was like 12 bucks for this weeeeeee little kit. I mean little.