Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,931
From: Upstate NY
Re: Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
Originally Posted by Fast Caddie
LOL, that's why i used the term loosely. I see those around here coming to a stop, waiting for another train to go over a bridge a couple miles up the track, and then getting back up to 45-50mph (limits set on the tracks around here) in just a few minutes. Quite impressive to me. The latest GE AC6000 locomotives are using 16 cylinder diesels making 6000hp and some 35,000 lb-ft of torque. A couple of those should get 30M pounds moving good.
It still puzzles me that the latest hybrids are one-off, albeit ugly, vehicles. Why won't some of this technology be incorporated in to the vehicles we know to day? The cars, SUVs, and trucks we know today should have enough room available to mount these systems. A normal looking cavalier, accord, ranger, canyon, trailblazer, explorer, durango...(whatever you can imagine) would be great vehicles to use these system in. Most are used only for getting from point A to point B without much need for power. Comfort, looks, and miles-per-gallon are what matter. And emissions too if you're into environmental preservation. The heavy duty line of trucks like the silverado, super duty, and ram will still need their gas/diesel powerplants for obvious reasons. And also the performance cars like the vette, viper, mustang, hopefully future f-body will have their need for it too. But much of everything else out there is just wasting fuel. I spend around $30/week on gas in the camaro, ~$1,500/year on fuel. Cutting that expense down to a 1/4 would justify spending a few grand more on a hybrid vehicle i actually like in the long run. Oh the benefits of a capitalist, petroleum driven economy....
I'm sure the cost is the main thing... but with prices rising on everything else wouldn't this balance out? I mean if more vehicles on the road today were to adopt these systems wouldn't the need for petroleum drop and the prices with them too? Less money spent on fuel means more money in people's pockets, and that can be used to afford slightly more expensive hybrids and then save money in the long run. But it all is just a dream for now....
Detroit does have somewhere to go from here. I hope they just get there really quick. I'm sick of paying $1.90/gallon for gas. And paying rising tuition too.... it's more than doubled here at CU in the last 2 years. $4300/semester sucks.... it was $2000/semester when i transfered here back in 2002. And my sister in med school is paying $40k/year. It's rediculous.
Whoa... got a little carried away there. If only i had more money haha
It still puzzles me that the latest hybrids are one-off, albeit ugly, vehicles. Why won't some of this technology be incorporated in to the vehicles we know to day? The cars, SUVs, and trucks we know today should have enough room available to mount these systems. A normal looking cavalier, accord, ranger, canyon, trailblazer, explorer, durango...(whatever you can imagine) would be great vehicles to use these system in. Most are used only for getting from point A to point B without much need for power. Comfort, looks, and miles-per-gallon are what matter. And emissions too if you're into environmental preservation. The heavy duty line of trucks like the silverado, super duty, and ram will still need their gas/diesel powerplants for obvious reasons. And also the performance cars like the vette, viper, mustang, hopefully future f-body will have their need for it too. But much of everything else out there is just wasting fuel. I spend around $30/week on gas in the camaro, ~$1,500/year on fuel. Cutting that expense down to a 1/4 would justify spending a few grand more on a hybrid vehicle i actually like in the long run. Oh the benefits of a capitalist, petroleum driven economy....
I'm sure the cost is the main thing... but with prices rising on everything else wouldn't this balance out? I mean if more vehicles on the road today were to adopt these systems wouldn't the need for petroleum drop and the prices with them too? Less money spent on fuel means more money in people's pockets, and that can be used to afford slightly more expensive hybrids and then save money in the long run. But it all is just a dream for now....
Detroit does have somewhere to go from here. I hope they just get there really quick. I'm sick of paying $1.90/gallon for gas. And paying rising tuition too.... it's more than doubled here at CU in the last 2 years. $4300/semester sucks.... it was $2000/semester when i transfered here back in 2002. And my sister in med school is paying $40k/year. It's rediculous.
Whoa... got a little carried away there. If only i had more money haha
Diesel electric locos use the diesel to generate electricity for the electric motors at each axle or even each drive wheel. No connection of the diesel to the drivers.
Current hybrids are coming in SUV forms, which is exactly where they are needed most, IMO. It's hard to tell them from non-hybrids in most cases.
In the early 70's the everage car got about 14 mpg over it's lifetime. High perf. cars got below 10 and VW bugs bested 20-25. New perf cars get 20+ overall and 25+ on long freeway trips. My C5 Vette does, and is considerable quicker in the 1/4 mile than my then-new '64 GTO. The C5 also has a top speed about 40+ mph faster than a geared-for speed Goat, and 60 mph faster than a 3.90/4.10 geared Goat.
BHL's who refer to us as a "capitalist, petroleum driven economy" usually aren't driving high perf. F-cars and hanging out on Advanced Tech. Of course, those BHL college and sometimes high school teachers pour out that stuff like it was gospel. More's the pity.
Hybrids aren't the ultimate petro-killer. Hydrogen fuel probably is. We'll see that in the forseeable future, IMO. I'm not saying our fuel bills will go down 75%, but we won't run out of hydrogen. We've been working on the petro-burning engine design and efficiency for over a century now, and replacing it with anything which gives similar performance will more than likely cost nearly the same to own and operate.
It looks like tuition is rising faster than gas. It's the BHLs again.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 908
Re: Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
BHLs? What is that? I'm republican, FWIW. Not that it really matters to me. As long as i have the freedom to live my life the way i want, get that engineering degree i'm working on, have the family i hope to have, and have all the freedoms we're entitled to, i'm happy.
I like efficiency. When traveling the highways no one can argue that having a vehicle that gets great MPG, "cheap" to insure, and "cheap" to own, and gets the travel chores done is the most efficient way to go, even if the price of the vehicle is a little more to start off. I'd like to hear more on the SUVs you speak of, if you don't mind... i'm obviously a little behind on the latest developments.
The hydrogen-powered vehicles do show some promise. I haven't really researched that much on the concept in the past few months. But i do remember some of the benefits of changing the latest vehicles over to hydrogen being quite possible. The worst problem is packaging and saftey, which should be overcome with stronger, lighter materials being developed constantly. How does powering a current engine ( like the LS1, LT1, etc,) on hyrdrogen compare to gasoline? Does is compare to fueling an engine by propane?
My cousin drove a truck for Georgia Pacific that ran on propane and i thought that was a cool idea. Not sure how it compares as far as $/mile to a traditional gasoline or diesel engine.... is it actually cheaper? I have heard that they are cleaner burning than HC fuels, but filling them up when the tank gets low is a problem since the vast majority of gas stations don't carry propane in a manner to make filling them as easy as "pull up and fill it."
I like efficiency. When traveling the highways no one can argue that having a vehicle that gets great MPG, "cheap" to insure, and "cheap" to own, and gets the travel chores done is the most efficient way to go, even if the price of the vehicle is a little more to start off. I'd like to hear more on the SUVs you speak of, if you don't mind... i'm obviously a little behind on the latest developments.
The hydrogen-powered vehicles do show some promise. I haven't really researched that much on the concept in the past few months. But i do remember some of the benefits of changing the latest vehicles over to hydrogen being quite possible. The worst problem is packaging and saftey, which should be overcome with stronger, lighter materials being developed constantly. How does powering a current engine ( like the LS1, LT1, etc,) on hyrdrogen compare to gasoline? Does is compare to fueling an engine by propane?
My cousin drove a truck for Georgia Pacific that ran on propane and i thought that was a cool idea. Not sure how it compares as far as $/mile to a traditional gasoline or diesel engine.... is it actually cheaper? I have heard that they are cleaner burning than HC fuels, but filling them up when the tank gets low is a problem since the vast majority of gas stations don't carry propane in a manner to make filling them as easy as "pull up and fill it."
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 908
Re: Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
Originally Posted by OldSStroker
BHL = Bleeding Heart Liberal
Have any thoughts on the questions i posted last? You're one of the members i like to hear thoughts and ideas from. All others are welcome too.... getting ideas flowing is what benefits everyone
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 727
From: Wolverine Lake, MI
Re: Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
For examples of changes that are occurring now, Ford is going to sell it's Escape in hybrid form in the next few months if they're not already taking orders. Jeep is now taking orders for it's diesel powered Liberty. Both of those powerplants are baby steps in comparison to fuel cells. The days of gasoline engines being the primary power provider for cars is numbered, and I'm guessing I'll see them become the minority in the years I have left in my career. Gasoline cars are already a minority in Europe I believe.
Bret, I'm with you on being sad that Chrysler hasn't put the Hemi in a fun platform. However, if you're looking for a touring car that is fun the SRT8 will be coming out very soon now. Jeez, did that sound like a sales pitch or what?
Bret, I'm with you on being sad that Chrysler hasn't put the Hemi in a fun platform. However, if you're looking for a touring car that is fun the SRT8 will be coming out very soon now. Jeez, did that sound like a sales pitch or what?
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,931
From: Upstate NY
Re: Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
Originally Posted by Fast Caddie
BHLs? What is that? I'm republican, FWIW. Not that it really matters to me. As long as i have the freedom to live my life the way i want, get that engineering degree i'm working on, have the family i hope to have, and have all the freedoms we're entitled to, i'm happy.
I like efficiency. When traveling the highways no one can argue that having a vehicle that gets great MPG, "cheap" to insure, and "cheap" to own, and gets the travel chores done is the most efficient way to go, even if the price of the vehicle is a little more to start off. I'd like to hear more on the SUVs you speak of, if you don't mind... i'm obviously a little behind on the latest developments.
If that little lo-perf car cost as much as a new GTO would you be happy having it as your only car? If you want to play, so far you need to pay. Of course, with enough demand and enough money (that's the rub!), an OEM could build a C6-like hybrid vehicle with a small diesel and a BIG electric motor for acceleration, but getting folks to actually like the car enough to buy it would be a challenge.
IMO, "green" or really high fuel economy vehicles which lack high performance, cost lots to buy and have fewer of the creature-comforts we've gotten used to appeal only to a minority. My guess is they don't yet appeal to the posters here.
The hydrogen-powered vehicles do show some promise. I haven't really researched that much on the concept in the past few months. But i do remember some of the benefits of changing the latest vehicles over to hydrogen being quite possible. The worst problem is packaging and saftey, which should be overcome with stronger, lighter materials being developed constantly. How does powering a current engine ( like the LS1, LT1, etc,) on hyrdrogen compare to gasoline? Does is compare to fueling an engine by propane?
Most of the hydrogen (H2) power folks are working on are fuel cells which produce continuous electricity by oxidizing a fuel. Using H2, only heat and water vapor are the only emissions. I don't think they plan to use H2 as a fuel for IC engines. Search around; there are some interesting articles on this:
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/...re_011303.html
http://www.detnews.com/2004/insiders...ers-196445.htm
or the BHL viewpoint
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1...lcellcars.html
My cousin drove a truck for Georgia Pacific that ran on propane and i thought that was a cool idea. Not sure how it compares as far as $/mile to a traditional gasoline or diesel engine.... is it actually cheaper? I have heard that they are cleaner burning than HC fuels, but filling them up when the tank gets low is a problem since the vast majority of gas stations don't carry propane in a manner to make filling them as easy as "pull up and fill it."
LPG is a good source of hydrocarbon fuel for IC engines, and natural gas exploration has never been higher. That might be the interim step from petro-based IC engines to H2 fuel cell power which is called the Holy Grail. The original Grail was never found (Indiana Jones notwithstanding).
I like efficiency. When traveling the highways no one can argue that having a vehicle that gets great MPG, "cheap" to insure, and "cheap" to own, and gets the travel chores done is the most efficient way to go, even if the price of the vehicle is a little more to start off. I'd like to hear more on the SUVs you speak of, if you don't mind... i'm obviously a little behind on the latest developments.
If that little lo-perf car cost as much as a new GTO would you be happy having it as your only car? If you want to play, so far you need to pay. Of course, with enough demand and enough money (that's the rub!), an OEM could build a C6-like hybrid vehicle with a small diesel and a BIG electric motor for acceleration, but getting folks to actually like the car enough to buy it would be a challenge.
IMO, "green" or really high fuel economy vehicles which lack high performance, cost lots to buy and have fewer of the creature-comforts we've gotten used to appeal only to a minority. My guess is they don't yet appeal to the posters here.
The hydrogen-powered vehicles do show some promise. I haven't really researched that much on the concept in the past few months. But i do remember some of the benefits of changing the latest vehicles over to hydrogen being quite possible. The worst problem is packaging and saftey, which should be overcome with stronger, lighter materials being developed constantly. How does powering a current engine ( like the LS1, LT1, etc,) on hyrdrogen compare to gasoline? Does is compare to fueling an engine by propane?
Most of the hydrogen (H2) power folks are working on are fuel cells which produce continuous electricity by oxidizing a fuel. Using H2, only heat and water vapor are the only emissions. I don't think they plan to use H2 as a fuel for IC engines. Search around; there are some interesting articles on this:
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/...re_011303.html
http://www.detnews.com/2004/insiders...ers-196445.htm
or the BHL viewpoint
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1...lcellcars.html
My cousin drove a truck for Georgia Pacific that ran on propane and i thought that was a cool idea. Not sure how it compares as far as $/mile to a traditional gasoline or diesel engine.... is it actually cheaper? I have heard that they are cleaner burning than HC fuels, but filling them up when the tank gets low is a problem since the vast majority of gas stations don't carry propane in a manner to make filling them as easy as "pull up and fill it."
LPG is a good source of hydrocarbon fuel for IC engines, and natural gas exploration has never been higher. That might be the interim step from petro-based IC engines to H2 fuel cell power which is called the Holy Grail. The original Grail was never found (Indiana Jones notwithstanding).
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Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,431
From: Pacific North West
Re: Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
Good stuff!
Everyone is starting to push out the Hybrid's GMC has a Work truck that will support a work site with electricity as well as save fuel driving. Seems to me it is DOD and Hybrid 420V system
Old Stroker may be able to tell us on this one. Why no Diesil Hybrid's? My guess is it is harder to get seemless operation like with the gas units. They tend to be loud, even the new generation is louder then a gas unit. either that or RPM factors. I do not see why they could not get 60+ MPG with a system like that.
As well as my love of fast cars I now have a 60 Mile commute every day. When gas prices sky rocketed I bought a 86 EFI Celica. Hey $35 and I had to build the trans. The wife won't drive a stick for medical reasons so It is a A4. We are averaging 30mpg on our daily commute. This is a geat deal better then the 18-20 we get out of her Z28. Our drive is 1/3 highway, 1/3 40MPH 4% grade and 1/3 stop and go.
This is the part that relates to earlier postings. So we take it on a trip thinking we should get near 40MPG. well Washington state is not as flat as Texas or Kansas. we got 27MPG and it would barely pull it self up a 10% grade
Now it got better MPG then our Bolt on Z28 but took and extra 45 minutes for a 140 mile trip! When we take the Z we get 24-26 MPG and travel in style
ON the one cylinder operation. Above and beyond what Old Stroker pointed out about having to turn it 6,000 to get the power there is a huge potetial for problems in the future. Just for this part here. Lets say they get it to run on one cylinder. what happens if that cylinder goes out? I have EFI cars come in the shop everyday with dead cylinders. the problem ranges from pluged injectors the holes in the pistons. Many times the EMC is fairly un-aware of the problem because the other cylinders have degraded a great deal also...and yes even with Our great savure OBD-II
well at this point I am just rambling. I just wanted to type up a few thoughts
Later
BTW I am looking at a Duramax to replace my ElCamino. heck 20+ MPG and I can pull a trailer!!
Everyone is starting to push out the Hybrid's GMC has a Work truck that will support a work site with electricity as well as save fuel driving. Seems to me it is DOD and Hybrid 420V system
Old Stroker may be able to tell us on this one. Why no Diesil Hybrid's? My guess is it is harder to get seemless operation like with the gas units. They tend to be loud, even the new generation is louder then a gas unit. either that or RPM factors. I do not see why they could not get 60+ MPG with a system like that.
As well as my love of fast cars I now have a 60 Mile commute every day. When gas prices sky rocketed I bought a 86 EFI Celica. Hey $35 and I had to build the trans. The wife won't drive a stick for medical reasons so It is a A4. We are averaging 30mpg on our daily commute. This is a geat deal better then the 18-20 we get out of her Z28. Our drive is 1/3 highway, 1/3 40MPH 4% grade and 1/3 stop and go.
This is the part that relates to earlier postings. So we take it on a trip thinking we should get near 40MPG. well Washington state is not as flat as Texas or Kansas. we got 27MPG and it would barely pull it self up a 10% grade
Now it got better MPG then our Bolt on Z28 but took and extra 45 minutes for a 140 mile trip! When we take the Z we get 24-26 MPG and travel in style
ON the one cylinder operation. Above and beyond what Old Stroker pointed out about having to turn it 6,000 to get the power there is a huge potetial for problems in the future. Just for this part here. Lets say they get it to run on one cylinder. what happens if that cylinder goes out? I have EFI cars come in the shop everyday with dead cylinders. the problem ranges from pluged injectors the holes in the pistons. Many times the EMC is fairly un-aware of the problem because the other cylinders have degraded a great deal also...and yes even with Our great savure OBD-II
well at this point I am just rambling. I just wanted to type up a few thoughts
Later
BTW I am looking at a Duramax to replace my ElCamino. heck 20+ MPG and I can pull a trailer!!
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 878
From: Clovis, NM
Re: Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
What I don't get is why japinese people don't have that many battery or hybrid cars.
Gas is $4 a gallon for cheap stuff. They don't drive very far to work, 8-10 miles is a very very long drive to work over here.
660cc engine powerd crap boxes is the way most of them go, I don't think they can get real good city gas milage, they make no torque I think they weigh less than 1000lb and there is enough stop and go driving to drive an american use to open roads insane.
A lot of people back home drive the same way back not far form home and with gas prices going up battery powered car would be good for scooting around town on nice days. I still would keep my gas eaters.
Gas is $4 a gallon for cheap stuff. They don't drive very far to work, 8-10 miles is a very very long drive to work over here.
660cc engine powerd crap boxes is the way most of them go, I don't think they can get real good city gas milage, they make no torque I think they weigh less than 1000lb and there is enough stop and go driving to drive an american use to open roads insane.
A lot of people back home drive the same way back not far form home and with gas prices going up battery powered car would be good for scooting around town on nice days. I still would keep my gas eaters.
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 622
From: Nashville, TN
Re: Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
I like the idea of propane as an alternative fuel. Propane has an octane rating of 104, burns cooler than gasoline so the engine won't have to run as hot, has more BTU's of energy for a given amount than gasoline for better fuel mileage, and burns so clean you could run an LS6 Chevelle in a closed room with no issues. The only drawback is filling up, but that could be easily fixed. I thought this article was interesting in Car and Driver. http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=2279
Jason
Jason
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 622
From: Nashville, TN
Crude oil a non renewable resource? not anymore...
http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003...-Oil1may03.htm
I really hope this company takes off. This could be a HUGE asset to our economy.
Jason
I really hope this company takes off. This could be a HUGE asset to our economy.
Jason
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 727
From: Wolverine Lake, MI
Re: Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
Not true, based on the information I just looked up. Propane is about 91,000 BTUs/gal and gasoline is about 125,000 BTUs/gal. A propane fueled vehicle will also get less fuel mileage than a gasoline fueled vehicle.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 356
From: Oakland City, IN
Re: Crude oil a non renewable resource? not anymore...
No freakin doubt! I had seen an article about this a few months ago, but I hadn't seen one with this level of detail. Excellent reading, and an exciting finding. I just hope it isn't folly.
OBTW, this should prolly be in the lounge. Not exactly Advanced engine stuff (although it WOULD mean a lot to us hot rodders who love this sport )
Dave C.
OBTW, this should prolly be in the lounge. Not exactly Advanced engine stuff (although it WOULD mean a lot to us hot rodders who love this sport
) Dave C.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,931
From: Upstate NY
Re: Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
Originally Posted by oil pan 4
What I don't get is why japinese people don't have that many battery or hybrid cars.
Gas is $4 a gallon for cheap stuff. They don't drive very far to work, 8-10 miles is a very very long drive to work over here.
660cc engine powerd crap boxes is the way most of them go, I don't think they can get real good city gas milage, they make no torque I think they weigh less than 1000lb and there is enough stop and go driving to drive an american use to open roads insane.
A lot of people back home drive the same way back not far form home and with gas prices going up battery powered car would be good for scooting around town on nice days. I still would keep my gas eaters.
Gas is $4 a gallon for cheap stuff. They don't drive very far to work, 8-10 miles is a very very long drive to work over here.
660cc engine powerd crap boxes is the way most of them go, I don't think they can get real good city gas milage, they make no torque I think they weigh less than 1000lb and there is enough stop and go driving to drive an american use to open roads insane.
A lot of people back home drive the same way back not far form home and with gas prices going up battery powered car would be good for scooting around town on nice days. I still would keep my gas eaters.
Seriously, electricity isn't free, and it may be more expensive in the long run to use little electric cars in Japan than the 660cc gas boxes. I suspect electric power generation in Japan is expensive. About 9% is hydroelectric and about 30% is nuclear. The balance of 61% is from burning hydrocarbon fuels which I think they have to import.
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 622
From: Nashville, TN
Re: Where does Detroit go from here (gas milage)
Originally Posted by 94bird
Not true, based on the information I just looked up. Propane is about 91,000 BTUs/gal and gasoline is about 125,000 BTUs/gal. A propane fueled vehicle will also get less fuel mileage than a gasoline fueled vehicle.
Jason
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 622
From: Nashville, TN
Re: Crude oil a non renewable resource? not anymore...
Yeah I know it should, but I posted this in response to the thread about Detroit and gas mileage standards in this forum.
Jason
[EDIT] This thread will be merged with the "Detroit..... milage" thread.
Jason
[EDIT] This thread will be merged with the "Detroit..... milage" thread.
Last edited by Injuneer; Nov 21, 2004 at 07:16 PM.