1racerdude

The engineers knew 10-15 yrs ago about rings.
They didn't have the material or machining practices or machines they do today.
Hell the piston makers JUST got machines to cut the lands flat within .0001--- Didn't have that 10 yrs ago.
There are also different ring materials today.
Most of the improvements are material and machining.

A/G

I can agree to the time frame noted above. However, I don't believe advancements in materials or machining had any bearing on change to 2nd ring having the larger gap. The evidence being that the larger gap was incorporated at that time. This is the advancement in knowledge (getting smarter) I was referring to. I agree this can apply aptly to your reference to the gapless ring. It took improvements in material to allow the gapless to survive in the high heat region of the top ring land. This is where that ring belongs BTW. AFAIC, the gapless 2nd ring engineers were aware of this larger 2nd technology when they released their product. So why did they regress in their work by defying that technology? I could see some gain with the gapless 2nd ring, but obvious negatives were apparent. Overall, was it really a plus? Was it marketing to by some time? The negatives were negated by finally being able to bump the ring up into the top groove. Another rant? Anyway, thanks for your reply racer.

1racerdude

I have run both the gap less 2nd and top and they both did fine. They still sell both and the gap less second shoots the larger gap second theory all to hell.
My contention has always been that if compression gets past the top ring ya are done anyway.
I like the gap less top just from the statement above.
On the top and second ya run the gap as close as ya can without butting the ring.This takes experimenting and most don't do it. Ya got to run a gap and try it in YOUR situation and keep tightening until ya get them touching and back off or run out of daring.A trailer queen can stand closer gap than a driver. There is more power to be made with NO gap if possible.
If ya can tear an engine down and there are no or very little black deposits below the top ring ya got it right.

Sales pitch????

SStrokerAce

Larry.... I've seen some results where you back the gap off, WAY OFF from touching and it made more power... so who knows if that even holds true anymore.

Bret

1racerdude

I believe this is in step with the larger gapped 2nd ring reasoning. Once it gets passed the 1st ring, main concern at that point is to just get rid of it as efficiently at possible before it does more damage
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Can't see that. It's not suppose to get past the top ring.That's why the got gapless top ring to try to prevent it going in the base


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One main (1st) ring for compression, one for oil, and if a third (2nd groove) is used, to aid oil control more than anything.I used to agree with that, but along with that noted above in other posts, there have been documented accounts of increased HP/torque after engine assembly with rings gapped way to large unintentionally.[/QUOTE]

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Going to have to show me that it was the ring gap that did it.
There is a possibility that the gap was too small and butting the rings lightly. That unseals the one that was touching.
Either way ya can't make HP with a base full of compression and it's hard to keep oil in it.
Let's say ya got .030 gap in the top ring,what's to say that when the engine is running in it's given water temp range and combustion temp range that that's two large.Ya can't rattle one and expect the gap not to close up. It may only have .001 gap while running in it's intended atmosphere. So where do ya draw the line as being "too large". Without experimenting ya don't know,ya just have a general idea.
The manufactures spect is a spect to cover most all situations.
Don't tell me about the EM either,that's an experiment in surviving detonation.

SStrokerAce

It was!

10.5:1 mandated now....

My guess is it's partly to do with the junk gas. Other part has to do with making them relatable to the masses.

BTW oldDUDE here is some reading for ya

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=152

Bret

1racerdude

"I have a customer that has gone through his 540 Chev many times due to his dis-satisfaction with ring seal. He has the time & financial freedom to do all he needs to accomplish these goals. So that allowed him to gain information from many sorces. ------ Using the std rings available from different vendors, he went through pistons as well to run this down. ----- What he found when all was finished and re-learned, it was found the Total Seal gappless top ring was head & shoulders above the non Total Seal. --- The key was the wall finish. Nothing like what is being used with conventional rings. The power level was up notabley & ring seal was just like they claimed. The second issue was the break in. He found the ring had to be set not on a power up cycle on the dyno, (chassis) but a high vacum coast down using the energy from the drive. There was abnormal oil smoke produced wich progressed out after a number of pulls. Only then did the engine seal properly. ------ It seems the ring does infact show a positive when you look at things differently. He spent an awfull lot of money, but most of all, the open mind won out."

Here is a guy that makes sence to me.
I have used both the gapless rings and they work good. I also got my machine shop to talk to Total Seal about the cyl wall finish and they got the needed stuff.Sooooo it will work if ya got the right stuff. Been there.

SStrokerAce

Yeah the dry install with quick seat and the right cylinder wall finish is the key.... most people cant do that. Hell I've never done a set of rings WITH oil on them! Shows my age.

1racerdude

Yea, since the R&D with C&A I have learned to soak a rag with 30W and wring it out and run it in the cyls. I have a squeeze bottle that I oil the pin with and use the rag on the skirt and sock it to it.
The first time I did that I expected the rings to be ALL broke up and molly all in the pan after the around the block break in. Well it stopped smoking before it left the shop and when torn down the rings were worn out but the walls were ready for a new set.