I believe you are putting far more prominence in #s, let alone particular #s than necessary.

 

If the goal has a specific numerical measure and is derived by assembling parts with specific dimensions to generate those specific number how could numbers not be important? How does one compare two products to determine the desired performance/value decision?

I am looking for a workable approach If there's a different one, let me at it.

 

And I thot I could post intellectual (well, in my mind anyway) statements.

I am looking for a workable approach....

I've no problem with that. What I was attempting to state was; any given head flow number isn't 'end of the world' critical. It isn't the #s you get, but the (quality of) flow, in an operating engine environment that really matters. With that stated, if you prefer, attempt to choose a porter with a repitable backround, you'll get #s you'll be pleased with, and can live with.

 

I think hat is where the wrinkle comes in. From the little that I have observed the porter/machinist is like the drug dealer to the crack addict. I'm trying to stay away as much as possible. I've heard rumors of bills upwards of $1000.00 just to cut on the heads. At that rate I might as well go the the 18* heads with the smallest runner I can get. I would probably be over 500 without much more than matching the intakes and ports.

Even if I did plan extensive use of a head porter it would still make sense to get the as cast heads as close to the numbers as possible.

What this does point out is that maybe what I'm seeking is unrealsitic. It would seem that it shouldn't be so.

Consider:
$1400 heads
$1000 cam with lifters, and rockers,
$1200 rotating assembly
$1000 block prep work
$700 carb and intake
$1000 all the other stuff not mentioned

Edit:
The goal an engine that works best between 2500-6500 and has torque and horsepower peaks of 500 in that range.

Since I am trying to do the assembly myselff I should be right in the ball park of all those crate engines at the same level of output. $2000 more and it would probably make more sense to buy one. I wouldn't learn anything, but I could definitely say I blew a wad on someone elses's brains and folks would go "OOOOOOOO".

I'm new. I know I'm new, but that doesn't mean that I have to start with some funky 300hp 350. The same work and the same parts go into both.

Jason

 

Youre only gonna learn by doing it.I applaud your approach.whenever you get stuck or cant do it yourself[machining,etc.] theres the pros to help.And the local vets and the guys here with exp.My first 350 was a 300 horser, but that was only for 2 days so we could smog,then it was epoxied bowties and a victor,and a monstrous roller.I learned alot,and the only casualties over 2 years were a cam and a couple pushrods.My buddies that were doing plain jane sbc/sbf learned how to assemble with plastiguage, and never did teardowns for upgrades or maintenance, so didnt really learn precision assembly or any useful tuning/bulding skills.Good luck.

 

Jason, if you go with 18° heads then bare ones will run you about $1300 unless you can find a deal. At that point you will have to add seats, guides, valves, springs, etc. They also require offset shaft rockers which are $1000 new and you should use offset lifters which are only available with solid rollers. You're talking about stuff that should make over 600hp if you half-*** the rest of the motor.

 

That is why I did Not choose to go with 18* heads.

If I were going to spend $1000 on porting on some $1400 heads then it would probably be better to get some $2400 heads to start and leave them alone. That's what I was saying...

 

500hp is not that hard if you know what you are doing.... The crazy thing is most crate motors are so cheap they are the best way to start for a short block on a SBC or BBC that unless you are going crazy I wouldn't build one. Hell I have a 383 short block in my shop now for a customer that he has about $2000 in with 4 bolt mains and a full Forged Eagle bottom end in. He's actually looking to sell it so right there you have your $2200 bottom end, without any work.

You can either work with a out of the box set of heads to get where you want to go, or get a set of cheap castings and have them ported. Sportsman II's can move some wind if done correctly, Canfield makes some nice cheap castings that kick ***......

Bret

 

agreed.

I'll add the vortec head to your list Bret. Bang for the buck, they're probably one of the best out there, not to mention, the aftermarket has plenty of complimentary parts for them.

-Mindgame

 

Yeah I was going to put that down but nobody really believes you since they are such magazine motor queens.... Hell the aluminum Fast Burns are awesome too... Hollow Stem valves, good chambers, good port volume etc...

Bret

 

I know.

If they don't believe it then all I can say is... they don't get out to the track quite enough. I know guys running the Vortecs in extremely budgeted strip builds and turning very good times. One guy (local) is in the 9's now with a 385, NA, in a 64 Nova. Using the vortec heads and GM's Victor-like-copy intake manifold. Of course his 60' times are in the low 1.3 region too.

And the FB's... yeah, killer heads for the $.

-Mindgame

 

Well those 1.3's help the car out prett well getting into the 9's!

Those heads are worth it just in the chambers alone.

Bret

 

Oh did I also mention, that car is on 10.5 tires.

Suspension mods include an underrider bar like Stock Elim. Fords use, subframe connectors and leaf springs, with two extra leaves on the passenger side. Low buck, no nonsense.

-Mindgame

 

I agree they would make great heads for a street/ strip 500hp 400, im running a set,and the chambers are awesome, i went REAL lean on my spray tune by accident and it never pinged, just ate a plug.Theyve got my vote.The problem is, i cant find any flow #s for them out of the box.I have a cracked one i scrounged but havent had it flowed yet.I want to step up to a manly solid roller setup, but need to know if i want em ported a bit first, and all the guys i talked to havent seen a set yet.Theres a guy in MI who used to work for EPD[ ] that gets good #s, but hes the only one ive heard of.Then my dillema of keeping the hollow LT4 valves,and sacrificing a little flow, or going to 2.05s or so,and gaining weight.Ive even got a cracked one so the porter can try four different things to get the best balance of flow.

Damn, i just realized i am continuously semi-hijacking posts here, but the topics always seem relevant when im typing.I apologize and will go haze myself.

 

It seems that almost all of the heads work if you know what you are doing. The challenge is I don't. To make up for that I've tried to learn through the books and internet (and magazines) what to pick and what to walk by.

Every article or or internet build-up I've seen that has had AFR heads in them for a 383 or bigger has "shown" 500 hp on them. Getting them would be a no-brainer, as my 408 would give me 25 more cubic inches to work with to get there. The challenge is I don't want to wait 2-6 months for them. The next closest I've seen is with Victor jr aluminum heads and a matching single plane intake. Definitely magazine stuff, but may not really be workable because they don't start "making power" until 3500 rpm. Thanks to this website I now know why. I would sure like to know what they are like at part throttle, or if EFI could smooth out the low rpm stuff...

If I run a 64cc chamber that puts me at 11.59:1 combustion. From what I've read that is too much for 91 octane gas even with aluminum pistons. I've read a bit about dynmaic compression ratios and using a lager cam to bleed off some of the compression, but I don't know if that is just compensating for poor design, or just the way this all works. Unless informed otherwise that excludes the fastburns and the vortecs or any other GM head. If I could do it with heads for less than $1000 believe me I would. If the calculator is correct I need a chamber 70cc or bigger to get under 11:1.