anybody ever use them before?
http://www.mpdonline.com/piston.htm#...20OILER%20KITS

any cons? I would think with a FI motor, this would ROCK. reduce detonation a ton.. and I see no down sides, I would use the smaller (.022) jet.

anybody used them before? anybody interested in running them? I was thinkingwe could split the cost of the fixture(the expensive part). $420


thanks!

 

I remember reading a lot into late model Mitsubishi Eclipses (Not the new body style though -- yuuuuuuk!), as I also wanted to have a rice rocket, and one thing that I kept seeing is that the hipo engine builders would remove the piston squirters...I think it had something to do with stealing oil from the upper valvetrain during high-RPM blasts.

I'm at work now, but if you're interested I may have it bookmarked at home.

The idea sounds cool though!

 

Good idea in theroy, but this well add X% load to the oil control ring, X% of windage increase. Piston heat transfers from dome to rings to cyl wall. I would think that the exhuast valve is going to be the hottest part of the combustion chamber, so I don't think you would see detonation protection. Sure help the wristpins. Have you though about piston coating, I know it holds heat in the chamber, but it should eliminate hot spots and provide an even temp across the face of the piston.

 

I was thinking about running them also, but (for now) decided not to. Rather, I'm going to have the pistons coated with a thermal barrier coation on the top, which should go a long way to keeping things cooler. I was also a little afraid to go drilling right through the main webs for the jets. If you're doing it, let us know how things work out.

About the oil control thing - keep in mind oil has an octane of 83 (or something like that), so the slightest bit of oil in the chamber will kill your octane rating. Are you running a crancase vacuum system? If so, that's probably not a concern then.

A.

 

I thought about these before.

Thermal Barrier Coating is ten times more effective. Not to mention the windage, and the pressure and oil you are robbing from other places. On top of that how do you change your bobweight for them, because you are obviously going to run more oil on the rotating parts. Yeah the oil control is key, nothing worse then oil in the chamber for detonation.

Bret

 

Jordan, A LOT of foreign car companies use these for obvious advantagious reasons. One company that comes to mind that loves piston oilers is toyota. Yes it is true that it adds some weight to the rotating assembly, but there are ways to calculate it and compensate for it. Being an engineering student at UCF I spend some time hanging around in the Engine Optimiztion lab (read: 1175hp N/A 358). Several Nascar teams that test new concepts on their motors in our lab (sponsored by Smokey Yunick) use piston oilers in their Winston Cup motors. One of the many advantages is keeping the piston cooler. Factors often not considered are numerous. For one, cooling the piston does help in decreasing detonation due to the fact that by reducing its temperature, the exhaust/intake valves and the combustion chambers are further cooled by the air intake charge, due to the fact that the large face of the piston is no longer adding AS MUCH heat to the charge itself. Another advantage of keeping the piston cooler in a precision-built motor is being able to factor in LESS heat expansion of the piston, allowing you to make your piston-wall tolerances much much tighter. Considering that, you can save power by reducing the tension of the rings, rings surface to wall surface, and piston skirt area.
Ready for a big advantage the nascar guys like? INNER CYLINDER WALL COOLING. Think about it: MORE wall stability, MORE consistent temp fron the inner wall to the outer, contacting the coolant....Also what is the largest thing that touches the intake charge once it enters the combustion chamber as the piston is headed down? THE cylinder wall. Do the math The length from the top of the piston @ Bottom Dead Center to the top of the deck multiplied by .....2*Pi*r (r being 1/2 the diameter of your bore). All of that is cylinder wall touching the intake charge and, until the intake valve closes, the charge is getting heated by it and Expanding, thus fighting against the vacuum effect sucking the charge in.
Yet another advantage of this setup is the added amount of oil lubricating as said the wrist pin, but not mentioned--dripping back down onto the cam. Remember that unless you have specially made lifters, the Chevy motor relies soley on splashed oil from the crank; BUT most of us that do have the lifters that do that Virtually eliminate the splashed oil w/ our crankshaft scrapers and windage trays. If you do the volumetric math we're probably UNDER oiling the cam lobes even w/ the oiling lifters after we get rid of the windage problem.
As for anyone worried about the additional windage caused by the dripping oil, GET your crank and rods coated w/ an oil-shedding coating and you'll drastically reduce this problem, but even so, the benefits thus far, out-weigh the downsides.
To sum it up, Jordan, I say you'd be making a very wise decision,especially if as rumor has it your adding even more heat to the equation w/ a boosted setup; however, I can't afford to split the cost w/ you now nor am I anticipating getting into my motor in the next yearish. If you do get the set-up however, let me know and down the road when I'm looking into doing it, I'll contact you and discuss making up some of your cost to you then.

 

All your reasons are reasons why I seriously thought about it.. but with out anybody going in with me, I don't wanna shell out the $450 for the kit to do it. Iprolly just end up coating the pistons. I still like the idea of the piston oilers, but it also seems to be unproven as far as the SBC setup goes, as I don't know anybody that runs them

 

The main disadvantage that I've heard about piston oilers is increased oil temps, if that's a concern.

 

Did God build that motor and he can he help with mine?

 

LOL, no god didn't build it but a few good men who've spent WAY too much time sleep deprive and living on a combonation of exhaust fumes and Taco Bell did.
I can't name the NASCAR team that that belonged to but lets just say this was "expiramental" at one point 2 years ago and now has won 2 Winston Cup races and placed them in the top 5 over and over. It involves making a head w/ virtually NO combustion chamber with the exception of a lil room for air to get under the valves when they pop open. They then take a VERY thick-headed piston made out of a trick ceramic/alloy/polymer compound and "mill" the combustion chamber into it in a wedge shape that concentrates the mixture under the exhaust valve so that the heat coming off the exhaust valve forces the piston to fire no matter how rich or lean they are. Nascar motors due to the carbueration and all that nonsense run VERY rich on the bank seeing the outside of all those left-hand turns and very lean on the inside so neither one wants to fire properly when the cars are hanging in the turns. I don't know all the ins and outs of the motor because they give us very limited access to the internals w/ the exception of what we're actually testing for them but I do know that the motors they build w/ that combo sets them back a cool 97K.

 

Just to clear things up that HP rating WAS reached without a restrictor plate and w/ a machine that simulates 125mph winds that the motor sees under the hood of the car. The actual pressure the intake is seeing at that speed is about 2-5lbs above atmospheric.

 

I don't believe anyone here will dispute the advantages of piston oilers (over not doing anything). The emphasis I'll put, is on which has the fewer disadvantages, oilers or a thermal barrior coating. Also, as Eric indirectly touched on, it's my assertion is that a T B coating will negate the need for the piston oilers. The better way to cool the piston, is to not let it get hot!

Most also realize that the internal combustion engine is inefficient in its utilization of heat energy. Because heat is energy (and torque), the greater share of the heat produced in the engine goes out the exhaust, and into the two cooling agents, oil and coolant. We are obviously not addressing the exhaust problem here, but by keeping more of the heat in the combustion space, more heat is available to exert force on the piston. With the T B coating, less heat will be lost to the piston, and then to the oil, and to the cylinder walls, which then goes into the coolant.

I question the validity of this conclusion. Please explain how you derived at this conclusion. If anything, a greater load/responsibility is put on the rings by the piston oilers.

 

I'm with you on that. If I'm going to put more oil on the bottom of the piston, and I go thru all the trouble to have the right Ra and Rz readings on the cylinder bore to run the rings i'm running to get maximum seal and maximum oiling, why would I want to run low tension oils when I have a greater chance of getting the oil into the combustion chamber and creating knock? That seems to be a very bad trait of piston oilers.

BTW when you coat a good amount of stuff you can almost elimanate adding lots of heat to the oil. I have been thinking alot about piston oilers lately and I still am not convinced that they have enough advantages over lots of TBC's.

Bret

 

Well, engineering student.... I'm a computer nerd programmer guy and I can tell you with my extremely limited engineering background (I've read a few books) that you aren't going to tell me that the intake is seeing 2-5 pounds (psig ) of boost. Yeah, you might get 1 psig if you extended a snorkel above the roofline and went 250 mph but under a hood...c'mon. I wasn't born yesterday and I doubt anyone else here was either.

This is one thing I kinda don't get in regards to coatings. If you can put a coating on the top of a piston to keep more heat in the combustion chamber (increasing the chance of detonation due to increased combustion temps) why shouldn't you just build an engine with a higher static compression ratio from the word go?? Not trying to debunk anything but I fell that's a valid question is it not?

As for this oil spray thingy, why not just engineer some type of jetted-sprayers to spray oil onto the piston from the bottom of the bore? I know some diesel engines have used approach before. Maybe something to think on.

BTW, where in the hell is Chuck R.??

-Mindgame

 

I can tell you are not an engineer, lol. coating the pistons reduces the chance of detonation, by keep the piston cooler. and keeping the heat in the combustion chamber(you want it hot there!!) Detonation is when you have 2 flame fronts(or more), not a hot cylinder.

Also, yes you can get a couple lbs of boost out of 125mph air, depending on what kinda motor is on, and how well the intake tract is designed.

That is exactly what oil sprayers are, its a oil nozzle that sprays on the bottom of the piston.