I have a set of Victor Jr 215cc heads, they supposedly flow 285cfm, was wondering if it would be worth porting these out and how far can you port them? If they can be ported to flow around 310-315cfm at .625" lift I'd probably go for it, but I'd like to know how much horsepower gain that would give me on a tunnel ram motor with a 255/255 - .613/.613" solid roller cam with a dual 660cfm tunnel ram motor? it's a 383, 10.55:1 c/r. Basically I'm looking at the numbers some of the LT1 guys are churning out, n I'm starting to wonder why I've got upwards of $9,000 into this motor with only a 600hp estimate while alot of LT1 guys on this board seem to be throwing out rear wheel numbers in the 500-550 range and seem to be putting far less into the motor. Maybe I'm underestimating the potential of my motor, or I'm missing something.

 

I actually have a friend's Victor Jr.'s right now. With edelbrock's cleaning up they managed 276cfm @ .600. Of course the midlift numbers were pretty terrible, but then again that shouldn't be tough to fix. There's surprisingly little material/room in a couple areas, but they should be able to peak a little over 300 & make up to 600-625hp NA with a relatively harsh cam in his 358.

Lots of lt1 guys making 500-550rw? Yep, with power adders

 

I think some people are keeping their power adders a secret then. I keep seeing posts with stuff like "you'll be looking at around 500rwhp" n I keep thinking "either LT1's are really damn good engines or you just have no experience with building a motor" - however, I do believe that Mindgame knows what he's talking about n his signature says "383 ci 568 rwhp 504 lbs-ft n/a"?? Id like to know what he did to get that figure unless thats a 12.5:1 motor.

 

Well Bobby Simpsons sig is gonna read like 700rwhp n/a lt1 soon... Its all in the heads. What you missed with Mindgames setup is he is using 15* GM heads, not the stock 23* Lt1 heads...

 

So do the 15 degree heads really make all that difference? How much cfm do they flow? Does anyone have some flowbench data on them? Do they need to be seriously ported? When ported how much do they flow then? I didnt think you'd get that much performance out of a set of $1300 heads, I'm used to seeing hefty price tags on aftermarket parts, people around me are very into the GM Performance Parts way of doing things, I always tend to jump on the aftermarket, but lately I've been seeing great things coming from GM so I'm starting to fall behind on it. So anyway yeah if anyone can answer me the flow question on the 15 degree 24502615 heads, I'd muchly appreciate it. I'd think you needed like 370cfm flow to get up to the 560rwhp mark?

 

I cant comment on Mindgame's stuff i dont know his #s... you'll have to wait for a response from him... But id assume that his heads have some decent work done to them.

I was looking at some brodix heads ported by Weld Tech and they only flowed like 354 peak. 370cfm is pretty up there. 32v Dominions only flow that much... 560rwhp should be atainable with less than 370cfm

 

I would guess that Mindgame has a serious set of cylinder heads there to do that. He he th eonly one other than probably Jimlab right now with a serious NA RWHP number up there. Actually Game is the only one with a RWhp number since Jim's engine hasen't yet found it's home in a car.

335+cfm is needed and a big cam.

Chuck Rideck has one hell of a engine too, but as a engine builder why not? Don't know the specs on that but it's pretty silly also.

The deg of the heads is going to make a difference. It's not everything but it will help. A good set of 18deg heads or 15deg heads is helpfull, some big numbers have been seen with 23deg heads too. The Sb2.2's are 11degs I think, but they are also canted about 4 degs (means the valve is not straight up and down in the bore in more than one axis)

I don't think that headflow is everything, it is important. With something around 330cfm and enough motor you could make up to 600rwhp.

Hey Kmook, I think you slipped with Game's name there. Never seen it on the board before.

Bret

 

Heads are it where power is concerned. Bret is right regarding the SB2.2's.. theyre 11x4. The better 23deg stuff will peak in the 325ish range, I'd like to get ahold of a set of those 215 RR's at some point though & see what that casting is capable of. There's so much you can do though to blur the lines between various heads though ;).

Why does Herr Game's ride make great power? Could be that Chuck went through the 15deg ProActions for him & sent him a couple camshafts :).

You're talking about projects that are out of most people's price ranges though, since most people aren't really worried about making a ton of power. Never the less, if you're building a NA sbc for serious power, I'd ditch the LT1 block & run a bowtie etc. block. Most guys want something to run within the capabilities of the stock PCM, a daily driveable hydraulic, and without exotic valvetrain components. For lt1 headed HR cammed engines, most don't even honestly get 400rwhp sae, much less 500+. Of course, like flowsheets, I can make a dyno say anything you'd like :D. I really don't think people realize what level you can take things to with a setup like this however regarding efficiency. Hopefully I can find time this weekend to machine my block & mayhaps show people something in this regard :D ;)

 

Price range? Com on guys..Play your cards right and look around..

When i learned to stop playing with standard belly button 23* junk i had no money..After porting sevral "big Dog"23* heads i started looking around..Add up the price of some new hardcore CNC ported 23* stuff that averages 3K for just the heads..Weld tech victor Jrs come to mind..Then add a port matched intake shaft rockers and some big tube headers..you will probally be around 3800 smacks..With that kind of cash you can easily get your hands on some great condition used 18* top ends complete less the heads studs..

When i lived in philly i always ran all my engines N/A..I got tired of getting beat by 90% of the money cars..(slowest philly money car is around 9.80 or so).This is what converted me after building a full race 23* engine.Im talk brodix traclk 1s out of the box 11-1 slugs on a 355 with a comp cams solid ar300 cam..

18* top ends back a few years ago when bush cars ran them were around 4500..My 1st set i got my hands on hutter ported GM castings jesel shaft rockers, a matched 2 pc intake and valve covers with oilers on them for that price..Only 2 races old.(short track from a bush car)Hell i even scored a set of Brodix canmted valves for less than that without the intake..

My 18* motor make 790hp and not the most streetable but it was built to make me money..23* heads are for the normal mudane cookie cutter enI see it as a waste of time to anyone looking to make sereous power..yes it can be done but you can also get that big power from a rotory but would you?

Hell my Little 18* motor makes good power for the price..I scored some hutter 18* castings with del west,psi, valve train and jesels.They peaked kinda low fior my tatse around 355 cfm,11-1 compression, in a .040 over 400 block with a stock crank thats been contoured and the counter weights trimmed during the balance job.Eagle 6" rods and wiseco slugs..A smallish cam in this one with .670/.621 and 263*266* @.050 cut on 106..It should make power in the low 7s and still be drivable with a carb until i get some cash to convert a GM 1 pc intake for EFI..I cant say that i have more than 5 grand into this engine and that includes finding new lifters that are offset and new pushrods as well as a timing gear set..

Honestly i can say that the most expensive Kitchen ornament i have would be the new Mostly used -12 engine..Total cost is 6500 or so...030 over 400 block with cat 4 bolt mains, block filler to the water pump holes,Kryptonite crank,Carrillo rods with carr bolts, new wisceco slugs, C & A rings, Used lunati solid roller, new pushrods and a use top end with PSI springs, Del West valves and and Jesel shafts..Not sure on how much power but with 15.2-1 compression and a .690/.730 cam it should be a fun little ride in whatever i put it in..

www.theperformanceconnection.com is where i source most of my stuff..The guy Terry Burnett is the best..I was so sceptical about forking over $4500 to him at 1st he acutally sent a head to me for free to inspect..Even offered to pick me up from the airport if i flew down..Theres another place is south carolina too that sells damn near everything from roundy round guys but i cant find the site yet.Im not an engine builder nor do i have the cash to pay one so thats the way i make the big power..Im not sure what these 23* LT1 guys are doing to get the big numbers but i know it took me 285 cfm heads wich i ported myself and had to epoxy here and there as well as some roof welding and raising,near 14-1 compression and methanol to get 10.002 from 2800lbs..Mind you it was done on a small Crower cam a little larger than a CC306 but not worth the effort when the same cam in a 18* headed engine would run faster..Plus by getting used stuff from to guys that like to get dizzy you have a good chance of getting documented stuff from day one out of the box and on the inspection becnh to the day you get it in your hands.

ON A SIDE NOTE IS A LT1 ENGINE WITH 15* HEADS OR 18* HEADS OR AND NONSTANDARD 23* HEADS STILL CONSIDERED AN LT1???? tHAT GOES FOR THE ONES WITH CONVERTED CARB INTAKES AND SHEET METAL INTAKES????IF thats the case then all my negines are street motors since i have no problem driveing around in them..Hell ask anybody who lives in SW philly about the white RX7 that smells and sounds funny

 

Thanks for the info guys. I've only built 23 degree motors so haven't been around the 18 n SB2.2 heads much, I know that SB2.2's are capable of crazy amounts of power but will also cost some $8k to use. Money isn't a major factor - it's just a time issue, I'm ok with spending $5,000 on a set of heads - but first I need to finish getting the chassis fabricated and pay for transmission/rear end. My only concern is pistons - if I were to some day "upgrade" to a set of, say, SB2.2's or something like that - would I need to flycut the pistons or is that not an issue?

Right now I'd like to just assemble the motor n see what it can do - it's been sitting around for over a year. But I'll definately keep in mind what you guys have said.

 

Okay... now that Warren Johnson has spoken.....

(side note) Since when does a street racer give all his info.... boy times have changed.

How is it still considered an LT1? Well who cares.

Nother' question, is a first gen small block still a first gen when it dons an 18* heads.... or any other head different from the 23* they came with? Think about that one some time.

I honestly don't care. I'm not going to be competing for "fastest LT1" or anything like that. Not going to be competing in any class events that require stock heads etc..
Anyone with half their brain tied behind their back could look at my engine and tell that the heads on my car, along with the adaptors under the intake, aint factory stuff. Doesn't matter where I race anyways, as long as the car is up to spec... which it isn't, hence I only got one run last night, not that I'm surprised.

On the 15* head, I'm not using a PA head Herr Odom.
GM factory castings for me, even included the PN in the sig so I'd stop getting a million PMs on where to get the heads. My cam is not large by any means. I'll say that it's under 245* @.050 and lift is total valve lift is ~.650, 110* lsa. I've driven the car back and forth to the office 5 times in the past two weeks and the average temp has been 85*, with ~20 minutes of stop and go traffic every evening. Temps stay right at 190* and I'm happy with the performance and "streetability" of the motor. Now I just need to get the power to the ground..... and according to a few people, I'm "down" on torque.
Definitely not a lack of hp up top, as the sig would suggest..... and yes I am ashamed of the 60' times. We need some work there...

Yes, Chuck ported my heads and chose the cam(s). I'd say Chuck knows a few things about the 15* heads that others don't since that's a major part of what he does. I also have a set of sb2.2s and my original plan was to use them but I was reassured that the 15* heads would get me where I wanted to be with alot less hassle, the rest is history and money. Not cheap, but I'd wager that some people on this board have more money in their n/a billet engines than I do in mine.... and the hairdryer boys, well we won't even make comparisons there.

Another thing on the sb2.2 heads. You don't want to try to put an sb2.2 motor together on your own unless you have alot of experience. Kinda like building one of those sail ships in a glass bottle, there are alot of little tricks you need to know and most guys (even engine builders) don't know much. Definitely a project for a seasoned race engine builder.

You don't need 370 cfm to make 560 rwhp. There seems to be a consensus that that's the case but I think it's a misconception. In my years of racing and playing with engines I've seen a few strange things. One, is that flow in and of itself is not the only thing that matters. The strongest engines I've ever seen, when taken apart, showed one very important consistency where heads are concerned..... and that is very even burn in the combustion chambers. Tell me that flow is the only thing that matters and I can name many an engine that made more power with a head that flowed a little less cfm? What good is alot of flow if the fuel is falling out of suspension and the burn is not optimum in the cylinder? Well, you lose power. Same goes for the intake port size. It has to be right for the engine. I'm not a head expert but I'm telling you what I've seen. The guys who really know heads, know what the right port section area is. They know how to make a port that has good consistent area, so the fuel doesn't fall out (especially for wet manifold engines which in my opinion would be more difficult to port for). Should be obvious why I don't port the heads myself when I want to put together a really fast car. My utmost respect goes out to those guys who really know how to do this stuff cause it's truely an artform.

I'm sure there will be other q's, I'll be back.

-Mindgame

 

I have a nasty habit of going through engine parts like there's no tomorrow. I've gone through 5 cams and 4 intake manifolds on this motor alone, I change my mind about the parts I want to use before I even have the motor put together. When I bought the car I didn't wanna screw with it, but the previous owner did such a crappy job on the motor that I was forced to rebuild it. Well I didn't like the Torquer S/R heads so I figured what the hell, Victor Jr's are the best bang for the buck for flow at $950. Then I blew a rod n decided to go forged 383, then I wiped out a cam due to an oil leak, didnt keep my eye on oil pressure gauge so decided to go solid roller. I was debating between a super victor with a dominator carb or a tunnel ram, well I've loved tunnel rams all my life so I decided to go with the tunnel ram. I'm hoping to get close to the 500rwhp mark with this setup but there's no real way to know till I put the motor into the car, but chassis people take a long time before they start anything so my car's still sitting there with the wheels/tires/rear frame waitin for installation.

Then I come onto this board and see posts where people are saying "im expecting around 450-500 rwhp outta this combination", then I look at the combination n think "either he's dreaming or them LT1's are great for hp". Maybe I'm underestimating my potential or maybe I'm way over-estimating it, but if people are churning out almost 500rwhp without trying as hard as I am, it makes me need more Ofcourse I'm gonna smack a 200-250 shot of n2o on there but it'd be nice to have some impressive n/a first.

 

Thanks for the WJ compliment.. Funny thing is that i almost started working there at WJE when i moved here.Too far to drive from austel to their location in atlanta.

Yes mindgame times have changed..Ive moved to the south and dont run any of those engines for money anymore.Hopefully i will be able to finish my roadster this year so they will have a home..Nor do i run on the street much here..Not enough money out here..



Nitromethane, who is building this engine, you seem to be going through a lot of parts..Is this over a short period?As far as the slugs are concerned you cant use the 23* stuff..Time shouldnt be an issuse as most companies JE,Wiseco,even SRP has a few 18* slugs as normal part #s..Since you have the time id just look and get the feel of whats avail 18* wise..Ive seen some recent whole packages for less than $3000..That usually gets you everything such as the valve covers,intake(it may the 1 pcs or the 2 pcs unit), shaft system, and complete heads.Keep in mind that you will need to run different header flanges as the 18* stuff has different spacing.Stahl offers many chassis headers for 18* flanges so you dont need to have them made..

 

I've been playing with engine combinations for about 2 n a half years on this motor... my original combination was an Edelbrock Performer intake and some unknown cam that came with the car using S/R Torquer heads, I swapped the performer intake +$25 for a performer RPM someone had laying around then went with a Lunati Bracket Master 235/235 507/507 cam but the guy who rebuilt my S/R Torquer heads for me gave me the wrong valve springs so the cam went flat pretty quickly, rebuild the motor using a slightly different cam and went with a Holley Street Dominator high rise dual plane intake, but again, springs messed up, I was given springs for a solid cam instead of hyd flat tappet, so byebye yet another cam, by this time I was sick of buying new cams so I just grabbed the one the car came with - not realizing that it was the springs that killed my last cam since I trusted the speedshop's reccomendation, well byebye yet another cam, then I sold the intake and got a Victor Jr 2900 intake to match my new heads and a Comp Magnum 292H cam, with matching springs, I set them up myself to make sure everything was fine - but the frikkin valve stem seals were the wrong type cuz I was rushing it so didnt really pay attention so that, combined with probably a timing cover leak or something? I d nno, leaked out 5 qt's of oil in 100 miles, I didnt keep my eye on the oil pressure so wiped that motor out lol. So now I'm goin solid roller, setting everything up, double checking it, triple checking it, and making sure I have all the right parts. I don't trust people to do things right anymore, the last time I assumed they gave me the right parts it cost me $1000's.

So anyway now I've gone from that Magnum 292H cam with Victor Jr intake to a Weiand Tunnel Ram with a Comp Cams solid roller - the motor is still sitting there in pieces ready to assemble since I decided to do the chassis work first, n now I already changed my mind about which camshaft I wanna use, designed a nice custom cam that should push it up another notch n work great with the n2o and tunnel ram, but it's too late since I already have the springs & titanium retainers setup so I'll stick with what I have n maybe somewhere down the line give the custom grind a shot, but I need about 30lbs more seat pressure for that cam so would need to find springs that would work with those retainers and my current installed height.

Other motors haven't had any trouble, this motor has just taught me to not assume that what people give me is the right stuff - I was given big block piston rings when I got a machine shop to clean/bore my 355 TPI motor and supply me a crank kit, I was putting the rings on thinkin "uhhh these are kinda big, oil scraper rings shouldnt overlap!" lol.