Gapless piston rings
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 584
Gapless piston rings
Just curious what you guys' opinions on them are for a street strip car. Worth the money? Do they last as long as a normal gapped piston ring for the most part? Do they like nitrous 
? Also looking at total seal's catalog, which of their gapless line do you prefer?
? Also looking at total seal's catalog, which of their gapless line do you prefer?
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 291
From: Abbeville , LA
Probably the only 2 reasons you are thinking about buying Gapless Rings are
Advertizement=
1) They are Trick looking
2) They should "seal" better
-------------------------------------------------
Reality =
1) The Trick is played on you ...you lost your money on a "lesser " inferior product
2) They seal worse , loose Torque and HP
sure they look awesome on a Static leakdown test without piston motion or load...most Gapless rings will show 0.0 % to 2.5 % percent leakage in static leakdown testing
but these same rings show more Blowby when engine is running under full-load acceleration tests
i've tested them and i've watched other engine builders try them on my dyno -VS- conventional rings ...so far, not one time in all those tests have a set of Gapless rings made more HP/Torque or had less Blowby
Advertizement=
1) They are Trick looking
2) They should "seal" better
-------------------------------------------------
Reality =
1) The Trick is played on you ...you lost your money on a "lesser " inferior product
2) They seal worse , loose Torque and HP
sure they look awesome on a Static leakdown test without piston motion or load...most Gapless rings will show 0.0 % to 2.5 % percent leakage in static leakdown testing
but these same rings show more Blowby when engine is running under full-load acceleration tests
i've tested them and i've watched other engine builders try them on my dyno -VS- conventional rings ...so far, not one time in all those tests have a set of Gapless rings made more HP/Torque or had less Blowby
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 752
From: Double Oak TX
OK guys....... let's hear a little more. I just bought some Total Seal gapless rings and it's not too late.
I did have an issue of blowby in a motor using gapless rings but don't have a clue as to why. If someone can save me from a hassle I'd really like to know.
I did have an issue of blowby in a motor using gapless rings but don't have a clue as to why. If someone can save me from a hassle I'd really like to know.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 451
From: Bradenton Fl
I have had no problems with mine,perhaps your experiance is a result of installer eror.Both hot rod and carcraft have done load and leak down tests back to back with conventional rings and picked up 20-30 hp on the dyno in the same short block to eliminate anomallys. They are sensitive to the gap and phasing as stated in the instuctions so strict adherance is a must.All the small block chevys I have built always have oil on the ring of the plug when pulled this has been eliminated with these rings and this is the strongest small block I have ever built as it has seen top 9's with a small 200 shot.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 752
From: Double Oak TX
I wasn't going to use gapless rings merely because of one bad experience (Yes, I have had them all.... I seem to be the official rocket test dummy who crashes first) I had with one motor and blowby.
Frankly, I chalked if off to the shop either using the wrong rings or wrong hone. Also some idiot had two plug wires reversed and initially ran the car during break-in on raw gas to those cylinders. So there was some reason to be more suspect of the install/break-in vs the actual rings themselves.
However....... a very knowledgeable person on this advanced list strongly recommended them and the local mechanic (a buddy) I'm working with also noted that he has seem the oil much cleaner in engines that used gapless rings. He also said a local shop whom puts out some very good drag and oval race engines uses them on a routine basis....... so I bought some.
So besides that...... I'm clueless.
Let's hear a little more on this as the engine will be pulled tomorrow. I can simply swap the rings for anything that works. I could care less, if it works, it works! However, once they are in...... they are in!
Let's hear it boys! The good, the bad and the ugly.
Frankly, I chalked if off to the shop either using the wrong rings or wrong hone. Also some idiot had two plug wires reversed and initially ran the car during break-in on raw gas to those cylinders. So there was some reason to be more suspect of the install/break-in vs the actual rings themselves.
However....... a very knowledgeable person on this advanced list strongly recommended them and the local mechanic (a buddy) I'm working with also noted that he has seem the oil much cleaner in engines that used gapless rings. He also said a local shop whom puts out some very good drag and oval race engines uses them on a routine basis....... so I bought some.
So besides that...... I'm clueless.
Let's hear a little more on this as the engine will be pulled tomorrow. I can simply swap the rings for anything that works. I could care less, if it works, it works! However, once they are in...... they are in!
Let's hear it boys! The good, the bad and the ugly.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 293
From: houston, Tx
Denny,
Almost no one besides some alcohol sprint cars use them and a lot of them don't anymore either. Never seen them on any real engine to speak of from a good shop. They seem to always lose some power and increase oil burning. Total Seals top engineer told me and others at PRI that they have to offer them since others do but they are not for real racing or powerful engines.
Now the newer TOP gapless ring has shown some promise where it can live and make a tiny amount of extra horsepower but even there the gains are like 3 hp on a 785 hp engine. When you gap conventional right there is not much gap left when engine is under power and some big builder want this there!
Don't use second ring land gapless ever or you get what you deserve after being told this! Hey do you autocross here in Texas? You're name sounds familiar?
Almost no one besides some alcohol sprint cars use them and a lot of them don't anymore either. Never seen them on any real engine to speak of from a good shop. They seem to always lose some power and increase oil burning. Total Seals top engineer told me and others at PRI that they have to offer them since others do but they are not for real racing or powerful engines.
Now the newer TOP gapless ring has shown some promise where it can live and make a tiny amount of extra horsepower but even there the gains are like 3 hp on a 785 hp engine. When you gap conventional right there is not much gap left when engine is under power and some big builder want this there!
Don't use second ring land gapless ever or you get what you deserve after being told this! Hey do you autocross here in Texas? You're name sounds familiar?
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 65
From: kenosha,WI ....USA
LS1TECH.com has had some excellent threads on this, do a search. A few guys i know have these in town , all of them on start up blowing blue smoke. a friend of a friend has these on a circle track engine, many runs, i dont remeber how many he said, but HIS blow smoke .....do the search, you'll see the consensus that they suck.....
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 291
From: Abbeville , LA
the very last time we tried the Gapless rings was the "new"
Top Gapless Ring
the company gave him the new top rings for free because of all the problems he had with their 2nd groove gapless ring !
the engine builder was constantly back and forth with company on honing process ...the 2nd time using the Top Gapless ring, they used a Sunnen CK-10 at another machine shop instead of using their own Van Norman air assisted hone they had at their own machine shop ..just to see if that was the real problem ??
same results in final dyno testing=> the Top Gapless ring still made less HP/Torque at 600 Rpm/Sec acceleration test rate on SF-901 dyno
this is a BBC with a real actually measured 14.3:1 CR
the 1st time we ever tried the Gapless ring , was many years ago when they 1st came out, ..this was in an NHRA A/SA 1969 Chevy Camaro 427 cid ....we immediately lost more than 1/2 half tenth ET ....we put back conventional Speed Pro rings back in ..and later that year set NHRA National Record in A/SA many years ago .
All the Gapless rings testing i've done has been with all out drag racing engines full throttle, full-load, acceleration down drag strip , and with 11.0:1 CR to 15.3:1 CR range along with 500+ HP on up...i never tested this type ring on any other lower HP engines or slower RPM ranges and under street driving conditions.
The 1st NHRA National Record i had in Competion Eliminator Classes was in B/FX in 1984 with a 296 cid Chevy engine in which was a "2-Ring" BME piston ..it only had 1 top compression ring and an oil ring ..no 2nd ring ...it sealed perfectly....so if many professional engine builders in Comp and Super Stock can use only 1 compression ring ..it makes you wonder how much a Gapless 2nd ring is really worth ??
Top Gapless Ring
the company gave him the new top rings for free because of all the problems he had with their 2nd groove gapless ring !
the engine builder was constantly back and forth with company on honing process ...the 2nd time using the Top Gapless ring, they used a Sunnen CK-10 at another machine shop instead of using their own Van Norman air assisted hone they had at their own machine shop ..just to see if that was the real problem ??
same results in final dyno testing=> the Top Gapless ring still made less HP/Torque at 600 Rpm/Sec acceleration test rate on SF-901 dyno
this is a BBC with a real actually measured 14.3:1 CR
the 1st time we ever tried the Gapless ring , was many years ago when they 1st came out, ..this was in an NHRA A/SA 1969 Chevy Camaro 427 cid ....we immediately lost more than 1/2 half tenth ET ....we put back conventional Speed Pro rings back in ..and later that year set NHRA National Record in A/SA many years ago .
All the Gapless rings testing i've done has been with all out drag racing engines full throttle, full-load, acceleration down drag strip , and with 11.0:1 CR to 15.3:1 CR range along with 500+ HP on up...i never tested this type ring on any other lower HP engines or slower RPM ranges and under street driving conditions.
The 1st NHRA National Record i had in Competion Eliminator Classes was in B/FX in 1984 with a 296 cid Chevy engine in which was a "2-Ring" BME piston ..it only had 1 top compression ring and an oil ring ..no 2nd ring ...it sealed perfectly....so if many professional engine builders in Comp and Super Stock can use only 1 compression ring ..it makes you wonder how much a Gapless 2nd ring is really worth ??
Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Don't want to get into anything major here.
A few things:
1. 2nd gapless rings make no sense to me
2. Measured Surface Finish is a big key, the procedure given to achive that surface finish is not 100% correct you need to measure it and work untill it gets where you want it. I.E. specific Ra and Rz numbers.
3. Crankcase Ventilation thru a Vaccum Pump, PCV or Evaq system is key needs to be set up per the directions of the company who manufactures the rings.
It's odd that there are dyno tests that both show for and against results on these rings.
The results I have seen with the gapless tops were all good, at the same point the ring and ring seal was a highly stressed point in the engine assembly and machining.
Depends on the motor and budget if you would even consider these rings as a cost effective option.
Bret
A few things:
1. 2nd gapless rings make no sense to me
2. Measured Surface Finish is a big key, the procedure given to achive that surface finish is not 100% correct you need to measure it and work untill it gets where you want it. I.E. specific Ra and Rz numbers.
3. Crankcase Ventilation thru a Vaccum Pump, PCV or Evaq system is key needs to be set up per the directions of the company who manufactures the rings.
It's odd that there are dyno tests that both show for and against results on these rings.
The results I have seen with the gapless tops were all good, at the same point the ring and ring seal was a highly stressed point in the engine assembly and machining.
Depends on the motor and budget if you would even consider these rings as a cost effective option.
Bret
Last edited by SStrokerAce; Feb 15, 2004 at 05:32 PM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 584
I am putting a motor together with a set of Speed Pro PowerForged pistons, forged PM rods and a scat 9000 3.75 stroke crankshaft with a medium (254/260@.050, 290/298ADV, .650/.640, 110LSA) sized solid roller camshaft and a set of ported E-tec 200 cylinder heads with a 175-200 shot on top, and I didnt want to skip out on any free horsepower. Sounds like I might just stick with a standard speed pro ring...
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 752
From: Double Oak TX
Ok guys..... you talked me out of the super duper gapless. No vacuum pump planned, so....Just good ol regular rings then.
Being the engine is coming out tomorrow, I'd say this was particularly good timing and certainly not my normal course of events. As mentioned, I've been shot into space way too many times with the reentry burns to prove it.
I thank everyone!
Also.......ya I've autocrossed a little in Texas, but not particularly good at it in my opinion. I keep forgetting where the cones are and miss a corner every now and then. I keep thinking it's nothing but a drag race with corners and am sometimes a little too heavy on the gas. But, ain't that the fun part?
Being the engine is coming out tomorrow, I'd say this was particularly good timing and certainly not my normal course of events. As mentioned, I've been shot into space way too many times with the reentry burns to prove it.
I thank everyone!
Also.......ya I've autocrossed a little in Texas, but not particularly good at it in my opinion. I keep forgetting where the cones are and miss a corner every now and then. I keep thinking it's nothing but a drag race with corners and am sometimes a little too heavy on the gas. But, ain't that the fun part?