Ford has a better idea - 5.4L Triton
 

I must be living under a rock. Maybe everyone else has heard this, but I though I'd share it to try and stoke up the activity on the forum.

I drive an '05 F-150 with the 5.4L Triton engine - its a "company" vehicle, uplevel interior, crew cab, lots of amenities, strobes, overhead lights, unlimited fleet card, etc.. Our shop said since the mileage was approaching 90K, the truck needed to go into the local Ford dealer for new plugs. Odd.... our state-of-the-art company shop that can tear down any kind of construction equipment and repair it, is afraid of a Ford V8.

Take the truck to the local Ford dealer, and the service writer explains the problem, and shows me a spark plug that look like nothing I have ever seen before. Its a regular plug, with a 1.5" extension below the threads that extends the electrodes into the combustion chamber. When they try to remove the plugs on high mileage vehicles (recommended service is 100K miles), the extension sometimes breaks off in the head, causing a "problem". Only one of mine broke of. The "tune up" was $888.

I research this on the 'net, and find out this engine (SOHC, 3-valve/cyl) is considered one of the worst designs ever - even though a magazine named it one of the 10-best engines in the world. In addition to the plugs breaking off in the head, in the early years they are also know to blow out the plug, and the C-O-P sitting on top of the plug damages the fuel rail. There is a thriving industry in tools deisgned to extract the broken off parts from the head without having to pull the head off the engine.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/tsb/fullt...php?tsb=06-5-9

http://images.ford-trucks.com/tsb/fu...89/tb8489a.gif

http://www.toolshackusa.com/Product_...lvan-39100.jpg

Typical ford. Out of all the cars I work on I think ford is the biggest pain.

Ditto. the only domestic manufacturer that I know of that is such a PITA. I remember changing plugs once on a buddy's 4 cyl ranger, and it had 8 plugs! Every single one of them was a pain to get to.

On a side note, is everyone else bothered as much as me on how GM gets dogged so much about their "dinosaur era" engines? People always seem to find ways to complain because GM uses pushrods, or their engines don't sound "refined" WTF is that? Do you take a refined engine out to tea? It also seems to me that with all of this new "technology" and don't get me wrong, I'm as nerdy as the next guy, aren't we backsliding? I've been looking at a new vehicle, the G8 in particular to replace my Park Avenue. Here's where the problem lies. The Park Ave is heavier, larger all around, gives up 21 hp to the G8, has 240K on it, and I can still pull down 28-30 mpg with a 4 speed auto. The best that I am hearing with the G8 is 26-26 mpg. The 3800 is by no means a "refined" engine, but with the comments that I hear about the noises that the 3.6 makes, is it truly any better?

Sorry about the soapbox, but thinking about what For and others (Chrysler-16 spark plugs in the hemi??) are doing, are they over thinking things?

[QUOTE=hairbear21;5847293]The Park Ave is heavier, larger all around, gives up 21 hp to the G8, has 240K on it, and I can still pull down 28-30 mpg with a 4 speed auto. The best that I am hearing with the G8 is 26-26 mpg. The 3800 is by no means a "refined" engine, but with the comments that I hear about the noises that the 3.6 makes, is it truly any better?
QUOTE]


I love my 3800sc!

I was semi-impressed that Ford had developed a "modular" family of engines.... but I never really knew what parts were modular. A bit of searching on the 'net, and it turns out there are no modular features to the family of engines. They are called modular engines because that are built in an engine plant named "Modular". :rolleyes:

i never knew that! Leave it to Ford to think of something witty like that though. You can't expect much when they design the oil filter on the 5.4 for pickups to be exposed to flying debris from the tires I guess.

Holy crap! That's a helluva spark plug! :eek:

i had a 99 mustang that shot the plug out of the head.

just driving it normally and started hearing a tick... by the time i pulled over it went from a tick to a loud banging under the hood. coil was broken off, and the plug wires and plug were both upside sticking out.

had a friend of a friend helicoil it. he worked for ford and said this is very common on the trucks.

pissed me off 4 months down the road the next cylinder did it. ended up replacing the head and selling the car.

sad thing is i drove it like an old lady... just poor disign the spark plugs only screw in like 3 threads then its bottomed out.


damn i should of broke the fuel rail and then burned the car to the ground for insurance money. would of saved me from having to spend a few nights replacing the head.

That plug from Autolite is a HT1.. The first time I saw it I thought it was a glow plug..:)

Got to love Fords...

i think Chrysler is but ford is a close second

The V10's have the problem of shooting the plug out too. I have had a 99 F250, 2000 Excursion, and a 2001 F250. All of them had the 6.8 V10. All of them shot out atleast 1 plug. My 99 did it 3 times. I found out that 1 of the reasons it does that is because there are only 3 threads holding the plug! WTF?!?! How can 3 aluminum threads ever be expected to hold back the cylinder pressure?

Tell that to all the Teams that no longer do LeMan style racing because they just can't compete with the Corvette, and it's old tech. engine.

I consider myself a car guy. Not a "Chevy guy", not a "Ford guy"... But I believe there is nothing the matter with the design of the mod motors. They are efficient, smooth, and every bit reliable as an LS-base motor. I have owned both. I currently own 2 LT1's- if I want simplicity I will go grab a wrench and get under the hood of those cars. If I would rather drive the car though I believe I'll be in my Mustang pinning up 29.5 mpg at 70mph on the highway.

Anyhow, this is just a reminder that 'car guys' still exist. We like all the big 3... I am, on the other hand proud of Ford in a business since... They are doing the best of the big three with the economy sliding. I just hope all of them make it through this.

I think that's why there is so much anti-pushrod panter out there. If I was a Ferrari or Porsche engineer, I'd do what I could to make a pushrod V8 "old tech", especially when I am continuously getting my a$$ handed to me by a 'vette.

The spark plug ejection is very common on the earlier 4.6/5.4/6.8 - the dealerships typically pull the head and bring them to me for a time-set install on the bench. We do it in chassis - a huge PITA, but significantly cheaper for the customer @ only $150 per blown plug.

The 3 valve motor that you have in your '05 is a much better design power wise than the previous generation. The spark plugs are stupid, but removable without damage if you know what you are doing ahead of time. The plug traps carbon between it's lower body and the aluminum casting - to remove them you need to pull the wires and squirt some pb blaster down there (or wd40) while the motors still warm, loosen the plug a little bit and let it sit for a minute while you loosen the others - then start back over again and work them back and forth to break out the carbon without breaking the plug.

Still couldn't pay me to own one over an LS series motor.

Their spark plugs are compensating :lol:

Lmao!! Seriously??? :eek:

I can't picture any mech. working under the "warrenty clock" taking the time to do this.

Is this really a surprise to anyone who knows or has done work on the older 2 valve 5.4/4.6? Ford only put 2 or 3 threads on those engines and they too blow plugs out too. I love the fix for when they pull the threads out for the plug.....run a tap through and helicoil the head. :eek:

Seen a couple guys do it at our small shop. Still can't believe that is the recommended fix from Ford.

How much math do you have to do to realize 4 cams and 32 valves takes more HP and MASS to turn than a single cam and 16 valves?

Might be alot since GM choses to make it happen with 505hp mid 20's mpg, better than anybody else with less than 1/2 the parts and cost.

Heard the G8 380hp has more power and fuel economy than the BMW equivienlent?

Plus the multi OH cam engines are literally HUGE... lets see someone else's 638hp 20's mpg engine fit in a ZR1.

BTW, I had a Ford Bronco II ONCE, the flexplate busted so I changed it. Well, the converter centering plug alignment knob that is on the end of the converter and sticks in the back of the crankshaft for centering (cast into GM cranks) is an insert on a FORD Bronco II, well this CAST insert thing cracked so I looked everywhere for a new one.. finally went to the dealer to get a new one.. they said and I quote "Oh that thing? Na, that's not needed, besides we cant order it anyway since it's discontinued, yea you dont need it it doesnt do anything" ???

HAH, YEA it doesnt do ANYTHING! Keep in mind it was cracked and missing a bug chunk when I took it out so it was doing something.

I put it all back together and sold it as is, it lasted about 200miles and the trans input shaft bushing blew out, started vibrating and leaking fluid.

No wonder why some Big Three get a bad name for themselves.. I will NEVER buy another Ford after that one experience. I love GM though.

I'd actually do the math before I made that statement. I'd also count the parts. Power is consumed in accelerating parts as well. While you're at it, compare the Arao 4-valve heads, to keep everything equal. Accelerating the mass of the pushrods and rockers adds up. Once you get the mass of the cam rotating, its pure friction loss, not inertia loss. But the pushrods and rockers are continually being accelerated from a stop, even when engine speed is constant.

The Triton in the truck is a SOHC, 3-valve.

Then it's apparent GM knows something (or alot apparently) that these 4 cam 32v guys dont cause GM's single cam 2v motors are smaller, weight less, make more power and get better MPG for the size and weight, and cost less.

Count the parts. For every overhead cam there's a bazillion more chain links, tensioners, pullies, sliders, bearings, bolts, for valves there's 2x the valves, springs, seats, retainers, lash adjusters (lifters), you name it. 2x or 4x the parts.

And this was in response to 4 cam 32v exotics (Ferrari) not the 1 cam 3 valve Ford.

Good example is the Ford Mustang motor, that thing is HUGE, but is small displacement and low power. I just dont see the point when you can have a smaller LS motor that whomps all over it in every aspect.

Ford has released a TSB for the plug removal procedure. Even with that procedure, they still sometimes break. The TSB goes on to list the numerous "modes" of breakage. Depending upon the way the plug broke, you may or may not be able to remove the plug remnants without engine teardown. I've removed several with Lisle's new kit, but some absolutely require cylinder head removal.

As cynical of Ford as I may be (I was a Ford Senior Master Tech), I must give them credit. They had problems with the plugs staying in the head on the older 2vs. They fixed that problem. Now they're guaranteed never to come out!

Just wait until the roll-pin in the VCT phaser breaks on your 3v truck and it begins knocking like a diesel :yes:

Best part of it is - its not my truck. It's a Company vehicle, and they pay the freight. :D :D

The Company just switched to the Chevy Silverado for any new vehicles. Score one for GM.

Just to rub salt in the wounds, after I got my truck back, it ran badly during warmup, with a lot of stuttering, very rough idle and an occasional "bang-bang-bang-bang" (always 4) misfires that felt perfectly timed, like one of the EDIS drivers was faulty. They took it back to the Ford dealer, and after 8 days in the shop, its got 3 new COP's. And its still running almost the same.... during warmup it has a rough idle, the stutter and a not-so-loud bang-bang-bang-bang. Pulls real strong once its warmed up.... but not so good untill then.

Then there's the smell of raw fuel........ they couldn't find that either. :rolleyes:

I could smell raw fuel on mine from work(f-250). Turns out the fuel filter was damn near rusted off and it still ran. Fuel was leaking badly from it. It was strange cause I could only smell it on the drivers side.

Exactly.... and they just changed the fuel filter as part of the 90K mile service. I need to get it in a lift and see if its leaking. I mentioned the fuel smell problem when they took it back to the shop, but I guess that was as mystifying to them as the misfire.

i work at a Ford dealership and yea the Techs dont spray anything to make the job easier on the 3v 5.4l motors. For every plug that is broke its another 1.8 hrs on the job, Do the math and thats a VERY expensive tune up. to the techs more thats broken is more money in there pockets.

Also my daily driver is a 95 ranger 2.3l m5 with 4wd, the plugs werent to bad just need alot of extensions, did it a couple of weeks ago.

Well..... its still running poorly on warmup, still stinking of fuel, both problems it did NOT have before they tuned it up. Our fleet manager took it back to the dealer and told them not to send it back until its fixed. Eight days and counting.................. arghhhhhhhhh!!!!

Well, at least Ford circled the problem!!!

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if i remember right there should be a recall something to due with the pcm wiring. Call up to the dealership and ask to run the recall list.

It came back after 10 days in the shop. It seems to be running better. 8 new coil-on-plugs. Last time it looked like the only replaced two of them.

Still stinks of raw fuel, out the dash vents when its sitting still, at idle. Guess I'll have to crawl under it.