Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
10-20-2004, 06:06 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: JEFF,NY
Posts: 225
Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
Hi, I have a high compression snowmobile ( my friend wants to know if he can run it in his car and drag bike also) that needs around 112 to 116 race fuel, I have a airport that sell av gas or ab gas I forgot what the pump said, I was wondering if I could run this in the sled safley, I know people that do run. Thanks a lot
10-20-2004, 08:01 AM
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 908
Re: Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
Av gas is very popular amongst the turbo buick crowd... IIRC, it's about 105 or 106 octane. Not as much octane as the more expensive race gases, but he might want to try it for a short period of time and see if it'll work for him. Works excellent in turbo cars thouugh 
HTHs
HTHs
10-20-2004, 06:35 PM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: 51°N 114°W, 3500' elevation
Posts: 2,037
Re: Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
Most common AV gas is called 100 LL. It's not a racing gas but designed for high altitude aviation fuel.
Unless you can get for for almost free, you're better off buying proper race fuel such as VP C12.
Unless you can get for for almost free, you're better off buying proper race fuel such as VP C12.
10-20-2004, 07:16 PM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 82
Re: Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
You should be able to get higher octane fuel than 100LL, but aviation fuel octane numbers and street gas octane numbers are not the same. 130 octane aviation fuel will have less detination resistance than a 130 octane race fuel for example.
10-20-2004, 10:42 PM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 93
Re: Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
Aviation fuel is an adequate octane booster for car, but should not be run straight.
You're far better off buying regular race fuel or using a 4:1 mix of gasoline to Toluene.
You're far better off buying regular race fuel or using a 4:1 mix of gasoline to Toluene.
10-21-2004, 11:43 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 342
Re: Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
Originally Posted by EricTheBald
Aviation fuel is an adequate octane booster for car, but should not be run straight.
You're far better off buying regular race fuel or using a 4:1 mix of gasoline to Toluene.
You're far better off buying regular race fuel or using a 4:1 mix of gasoline to Toluene.
10-24-2004, 08:33 PM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Roseville, MI, USA
Posts: 203
Re: Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
if you have a vehicle with oxygen sensors i wouldn't use 100LL. It does have lead in it. The toluene mix is a good idea, we are all going to get cancer with all the things in the atmosphere these days. aviation fuel is rated a little differently than normal gas, it takes into account its added oxidizers to help with combustion at higher altitudes.
It may help in mixes as an octane booster but straight is not recommended.
As far as your sled goes i would do the toluene thing, ive hear NOTHING but good from buick guys and other turbo guys i know that love it. If mixing a 5 gal i wouldnt put more than a 20-40% mix with premium unleaded. SO:
Toluene octane = 114 (R+M/2)
(intial gallons * Octane of fuel)+(added gallons * Octane of added fuel)/total gallons
[(4*94)+(1*114)]/5=98 octane
[(3*94)+(2*114)]/5= 102 octane
OR you could do like the F1 guys in the 80's and run 80% Toluene and 20% heptane (0 Octane used as a filler/density increaser).
good luck and hope i helped.
It may help in mixes as an octane booster but straight is not recommended.
As far as your sled goes i would do the toluene thing, ive hear NOTHING but good from buick guys and other turbo guys i know that love it. If mixing a 5 gal i wouldnt put more than a 20-40% mix with premium unleaded. SO:
Toluene octane = 114 (R+M/2)
(intial gallons * Octane of fuel)+(added gallons * Octane of added fuel)/total gallons
[(4*94)+(1*114)]/5=98 octane
[(3*94)+(2*114)]/5= 102 octane
OR you could do like the F1 guys in the 80's and run 80% Toluene and 20% heptane (0 Octane used as a filler/density increaser).
good luck and hope i helped.
10-25-2004, 10:35 AM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In a house by the bay
Posts: 2,985
Re: Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
Test for octane requirement.
By Bruce M. Fulper
(The Tim Conway of Pontiac Performance)
Inaudible detonation. A term I've introduced to our community in 1996 in an attempt to warn my Pontiac friends of a very serious condition. Unfortunately there isn't a "litmus paper" test, yet. That would be a terrific item if invented.
Octane by definition is a detonation resisting chemical. I'll get into it further in my book, but for now let's do a test to see if you're cheating yourself out of power, and possibly hurting parts. There are two ways you can approach this. Is there a chassis dyno in your area? or can you go to a race track to test? You'll need to do one or the other. You may have heard that you can twist the distributor advanced until the engine audibly "pings," but this is absolute foolishness. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. All you learn is; at the point it pings, it's too far advanced. So? It does not tell you if that you move the timing back 2 or 3 degrees, as the proponents of this test would have you believe, that you've achieved "optimum" timing. That this is the spot that's the engine will make the most power. We need to find the engines sweet spot, while under a load.
OK. We're going to capsulize this guys, so don't be pickin' me apart. Get to the track or a chassis dyno. Bring along five gallons of 108 or 110 race gas. Make sure you have less than five gallons of your regular fuel in the tank at the start of the test. Check your timing at 2500 to 3000 rpm without Vac. Adv. hooked up. (Capsule#1; dist. is assumed to be working right.) Make a dyno pull or a run as-is. Record the mph. We're not concerned with e.t. as the mph reflects your h.p. Advance the timing three degrees. Make another run or pull. Did it slow down, run the same, go faster? If it slowed down, pour in five gallons of race gas. (Do not use 112 or 115 octane.)
If it ran the same, or went quicker, advance the timing another three degrees and make another pass. Keep advancing the timing three degrees until you find the spot that the car slows down. At that point retard the timing three degrees, then add the race gas. Make two more passes. Did the mph come up? Yes? Then advance the timing three more degrees. Make another pass and? what happened? More mph? This tells you that you are not meeting the octane requirement on 93. Did the car slow down? Make another pass just to make sure the mix of fuel has gotten completely into the carb. If it slows down it would tell you that it doesn't need the extra octane. Also, if the car went quicker on the last pass, add two more degrees of timing and make another pass. Quicker or slower? Quicker tells you it really needs the mix of fuel.
Also, understand this. Too much octane will also slow the car down. That's why there's three basic levels at most gas pumps. You already know that if you put too little octane you will lose power, but did you know that you will also lose power if you put in too high an octane. The burn rate is incorrect, and while you will not detonate, you will not burn the fuel as efficiently. You'll get less mileage and have less power. So that's why I said not to use 112 or 115 unless you mix it two gallons to four of 92/93 octane. 108 mix 4 gallons to 5 gallons of 92/93.
Good Luck
By Bruce M. Fulper
(The Tim Conway of Pontiac Performance)
Inaudible detonation. A term I've introduced to our community in 1996 in an attempt to warn my Pontiac friends of a very serious condition. Unfortunately there isn't a "litmus paper" test, yet. That would be a terrific item if invented.
Octane by definition is a detonation resisting chemical. I'll get into it further in my book, but for now let's do a test to see if you're cheating yourself out of power, and possibly hurting parts. There are two ways you can approach this. Is there a chassis dyno in your area? or can you go to a race track to test? You'll need to do one or the other. You may have heard that you can twist the distributor advanced until the engine audibly "pings," but this is absolute foolishness. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. All you learn is; at the point it pings, it's too far advanced. So? It does not tell you if that you move the timing back 2 or 3 degrees, as the proponents of this test would have you believe, that you've achieved "optimum" timing. That this is the spot that's the engine will make the most power. We need to find the engines sweet spot, while under a load.
OK. We're going to capsulize this guys, so don't be pickin' me apart. Get to the track or a chassis dyno. Bring along five gallons of 108 or 110 race gas. Make sure you have less than five gallons of your regular fuel in the tank at the start of the test. Check your timing at 2500 to 3000 rpm without Vac. Adv. hooked up. (Capsule#1; dist. is assumed to be working right.) Make a dyno pull or a run as-is. Record the mph. We're not concerned with e.t. as the mph reflects your h.p. Advance the timing three degrees. Make another run or pull. Did it slow down, run the same, go faster? If it slowed down, pour in five gallons of race gas. (Do not use 112 or 115 octane.)
If it ran the same, or went quicker, advance the timing another three degrees and make another pass. Keep advancing the timing three degrees until you find the spot that the car slows down. At that point retard the timing three degrees, then add the race gas. Make two more passes. Did the mph come up? Yes? Then advance the timing three more degrees. Make another pass and? what happened? More mph? This tells you that you are not meeting the octane requirement on 93. Did the car slow down? Make another pass just to make sure the mix of fuel has gotten completely into the carb. If it slows down it would tell you that it doesn't need the extra octane. Also, if the car went quicker on the last pass, add two more degrees of timing and make another pass. Quicker or slower? Quicker tells you it really needs the mix of fuel.
Also, understand this. Too much octane will also slow the car down. That's why there's three basic levels at most gas pumps. You already know that if you put too little octane you will lose power, but did you know that you will also lose power if you put in too high an octane. The burn rate is incorrect, and while you will not detonate, you will not burn the fuel as efficiently. You'll get less mileage and have less power. So that's why I said not to use 112 or 115 unless you mix it two gallons to four of 92/93 octane. 108 mix 4 gallons to 5 gallons of 92/93.
Good Luck
-Mindgame
10-27-2004, 08:02 AM
#11
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,211
Re: Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
A little additional info on Toluene...
1) You actually could run it straight it you wanted to. It's a pure hydrocarbon, so it'll burn fine and not hurt anything. Your only problem is that a 114 octane fuel can be hard to ignite without a lot of compression.
2) While in most cases low octane gas contains more potential energy than high octane gas, with toluene it's the other way around. Toluene contains more potential energy than gasoline.
3) In racing that has specific fuel requirements, you may or may not be able to use toluene. You won't have to worry about it being detected as a chemical adidtive, again because it's a pure hydrocarbon that is already used in pump gas as an octane booster. However, you will DEFINTELY want to check the specific gravity of any fuel you are using. I honestly don't know what the SG of toluene is, but I'm betting that it's higher than pump gas.
1) You actually could run it straight it you wanted to. It's a pure hydrocarbon, so it'll burn fine and not hurt anything. Your only problem is that a 114 octane fuel can be hard to ignite without a lot of compression.
2) While in most cases low octane gas contains more potential energy than high octane gas, with toluene it's the other way around. Toluene contains more potential energy than gasoline.
3) In racing that has specific fuel requirements, you may or may not be able to use toluene. You won't have to worry about it being detected as a chemical adidtive, again because it's a pure hydrocarbon that is already used in pump gas as an octane booster. However, you will DEFINTELY want to check the specific gravity of any fuel you are using. I honestly don't know what the SG of toluene is, but I'm betting that it's higher than pump gas.
10-27-2004, 06:04 PM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Roseville, MI, USA
Posts: 203
Re: Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
some exerpts on Toluene:
As a Formula 1 racing fan of many years, I recalled that toluene was used extensively in the turbo era in the 1980s by all the Formula 1 teams. The 1.5 liter turbocharged engines ran as much as 5 bars of boost (73 psi) in qualifying and 4 bars (59 psi) in the actual race. Power output exceeded 1500bhp, which translates into 1000bhp/liter, an astronomical figure.
A motorsports journalist, Ian Bamsey, was able to obtain Honda's cooperation for his book "McLaren Honda Turbo, a Technical Appraisal". The book documents the key role that the toluene fuel played in allowing these tiny engines to run so much turbo boost without detonation. The term "rocket fuel" originated from the Formula 1 fraternity as an affectionate nickname to describe its devastating potency. Thus I concluded that I should focus my research on using toluene for my octane boosting project.
Individuals with good long term memory will recall that when unleaded gasoline was first introduced, only low octane grades were available. While it is not entirely clear that high octane super unleaded gas came about as a result of the advances in fuel technology in Formula 1, there is every reason to suspect that this is indeed the case, since many of the major oil companies were involved in the escalating race to develop increasingly potent racing fuel during this era.
Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon (C7H8). i.e. it contains only hydrogen and carbon atoms. It belongs to a particular category of hydrocarbons called aromatic hydrocarbons. Complete combustion of toluene yields CO2 and H2O. This fact ensures that the entire emission control system such as the catalyst and oxygen sensor of your car is unaffected. There are no metallic compounds (lead, magnesium etc), no nitro compounds and no oxygen atoms in toluene. It is made up of exactly the same ingredients as ordinary gasoline. In fact it is one of the main ingredients of gasoline.
Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107, leading to a (R+M)/2 rating of 114. (R+M)/2 is how ordinary fuels are rated in the US. Note that toluene has a sensitivity rating of 121-107=14. This compares favorably with alcohols which have sensitivities in the 20-30 range. The more sensitive a fuel is the more its performance degrades under load. Toluene's low sensitivity means that it is an excellent fuel for a heavily loaded engine.
Toluene is denser than ordinary gasoline (0.87 g/mL vs. 0.72-0.74) and contains more energy per unit volume. Thus combustion of toluene leads to more energy being liberated and thus more power generated. This is in contrast to oxygenated octane boosters like ethanol or MTBE which contain less energy per unit volume compared to gasoline. The higher heating value of toluene also means that the exhaust gases contain more kinetic energy, which in turn means that there is more energy to drive turbocharger vanes. In practical terms this is experienced as a faster onset of turbo boost.
And this is what i was talking about with not using 100% toluene...
First of all, the F1 racers did not use 100% toluene, but 84%. The other 16% in their brew is n-heptane, which has an octane rating of zero. The reason for this strange combination is because the F1 rocket fuel was limited to the rules to being of 102 RON octane. The n-heptane is "filler" to make the fuel comply with the rules.
Because toluene is such an effective anti knock fuel it also means that it is more difficult to ignite at low temperatures. The Formula 1 cars that ran on 84% toluene needed to have hot radiator air diverted to heat its fuel tank to 70C to assist its vaporization. Thus too strong a concentration of toluene will lead to poor cold start and running characteristics. I recommend that the concentration of toluene used to not exceed what the engine is capable of utilizing. i.e. Experiment with small increases in concentration until you can no longer detect an improvement.
As a Formula 1 racing fan of many years, I recalled that toluene was used extensively in the turbo era in the 1980s by all the Formula 1 teams. The 1.5 liter turbocharged engines ran as much as 5 bars of boost (73 psi) in qualifying and 4 bars (59 psi) in the actual race. Power output exceeded 1500bhp, which translates into 1000bhp/liter, an astronomical figure.
A motorsports journalist, Ian Bamsey, was able to obtain Honda's cooperation for his book "McLaren Honda Turbo, a Technical Appraisal". The book documents the key role that the toluene fuel played in allowing these tiny engines to run so much turbo boost without detonation. The term "rocket fuel" originated from the Formula 1 fraternity as an affectionate nickname to describe its devastating potency. Thus I concluded that I should focus my research on using toluene for my octane boosting project.
Individuals with good long term memory will recall that when unleaded gasoline was first introduced, only low octane grades were available. While it is not entirely clear that high octane super unleaded gas came about as a result of the advances in fuel technology in Formula 1, there is every reason to suspect that this is indeed the case, since many of the major oil companies were involved in the escalating race to develop increasingly potent racing fuel during this era.
Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon (C7H8). i.e. it contains only hydrogen and carbon atoms. It belongs to a particular category of hydrocarbons called aromatic hydrocarbons. Complete combustion of toluene yields CO2 and H2O. This fact ensures that the entire emission control system such as the catalyst and oxygen sensor of your car is unaffected. There are no metallic compounds (lead, magnesium etc), no nitro compounds and no oxygen atoms in toluene. It is made up of exactly the same ingredients as ordinary gasoline. In fact it is one of the main ingredients of gasoline.
Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107, leading to a (R+M)/2 rating of 114. (R+M)/2 is how ordinary fuels are rated in the US. Note that toluene has a sensitivity rating of 121-107=14. This compares favorably with alcohols which have sensitivities in the 20-30 range. The more sensitive a fuel is the more its performance degrades under load. Toluene's low sensitivity means that it is an excellent fuel for a heavily loaded engine.
Toluene is denser than ordinary gasoline (0.87 g/mL vs. 0.72-0.74) and contains more energy per unit volume. Thus combustion of toluene leads to more energy being liberated and thus more power generated. This is in contrast to oxygenated octane boosters like ethanol or MTBE which contain less energy per unit volume compared to gasoline. The higher heating value of toluene also means that the exhaust gases contain more kinetic energy, which in turn means that there is more energy to drive turbocharger vanes. In practical terms this is experienced as a faster onset of turbo boost.
And this is what i was talking about with not using 100% toluene...
First of all, the F1 racers did not use 100% toluene, but 84%. The other 16% in their brew is n-heptane, which has an octane rating of zero. The reason for this strange combination is because the F1 rocket fuel was limited to the rules to being of 102 RON octane. The n-heptane is "filler" to make the fuel comply with the rules.
Because toluene is such an effective anti knock fuel it also means that it is more difficult to ignite at low temperatures. The Formula 1 cars that ran on 84% toluene needed to have hot radiator air diverted to heat its fuel tank to 70C to assist its vaporization. Thus too strong a concentration of toluene will lead to poor cold start and running characteristics. I recommend that the concentration of toluene used to not exceed what the engine is capable of utilizing. i.e. Experiment with small increases in concentration until you can no longer detect an improvement.
!["White Knight"'s Avatar](data:image/svg+xml;utf8,<svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' viewBox='0 0 50 50'><circle class='avatar-circle-default' fill='%2385a3bd' cx='25px' cy='25px' r='20px'></circle><text class='avatar-text-default' x='49%' y='53%' fill='white' text-anchor='middle' alignment-baseline='middle'>"</text></svg>)
11-02-2004, 05:13 PM
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Roseville, MI, USA
Posts: 203
Re: Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
Toluene?
You can get it at any automotive paint supply place, as long as you dont live in cali. Then you might need a business licence or something because most of the paint shops use a water born paint system in cali because of the VOC content of most other auto paints.
You can get it at any automotive paint supply place, as long as you dont live in cali. Then you might need a business licence or something because most of the paint shops use a water born paint system in cali because of the VOC content of most other auto paints.
01-30-2005, 01:37 PM
#15
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13
Re: Can any one tell me about the fuel you buy at the airport high comp race use ok?
I ran helicopter fuel which at the time was somewhere around 116 or so. Also I can't remember if it was green or blue. I don't fly anymore nor do I have the 930 I used to have.
I ran to 2 bar with an adjustable waste gate but only with staight helicopter fuel.
I don't even know if that is available as I'm not sure there are too many non-turbine helicopters around anymore. Also it's against the law or was to put aviation gas in a vehicle used on the street.
I'm still trying to figure out how much ethanol you can use to boost octane in a normally aspirated vehicle without rejetting or affecting burn.
Ethanol is synergistic in boosting octane ratings but I'm not sure how much.
Does anyone know about running toluene, ethanol, and unleaded gas?
I ran to 2 bar with an adjustable waste gate but only with staight helicopter fuel.
I don't even know if that is available as I'm not sure there are too many non-turbine helicopters around anymore. Also it's against the law or was to put aviation gas in a vehicle used on the street.
I'm still trying to figure out how much ethanol you can use to boost octane in a normally aspirated vehicle without rejetting or affecting burn.
Ethanol is synergistic in boosting octane ratings but I'm not sure how much.
Does anyone know about running toluene, ethanol, and unleaded gas?