Any progress on the OPTI alternative
02-08-2004, 01:18 AM
#91
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: wilmington, NC USA
Posts: 252
is delteq simply using the ICM from a northstar? or are you referring to simply obtaining the coil packs? just curious as I have two opti changes to do right now and I am completely fed up with it... ready to pay and install something that works and I don't have to dread the soon to come failure bound to happen with the optispark. any help appreciated!
Chris
Chris
02-08-2004, 10:03 AM
#92
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Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Eastern Seaboard
Posts: 120
The Delteq includes the mounting brackets. And yes, the ICM is from the Northstar, but requires their box to run it. The coils used on this system are standard GM dual-tower coils that have been used on many different vehicles over the years. Accel and MSD make coils for it too (I am using the MSD's) if you're looking at aftermarket, but they're around $40/ea.
arnie - I don't really follow your logic behind the LSx ignition system; 8 coils don't always mean better, and I personally think it was more a cost/packaging solution. You could apply the same logic to the Northstar ignition system (i.e., a more refined and expensive engine using lost spark method equals better). Not that I believe that, just stating that as FFT.
Each system has their pros/cons, and both are an improvement over the factory setup on the LTx engines. And I don't mean the shortcomings with the Opti - I think it's a pretty good setup and is even better once the high tension has been removed from the unit. What I'm talking about is the improvement with the available spark energy to the cylinders when using mutiple coils over a single coil configuration.
I'm partial to the lost spark configuration myself; I've been using this kind of setup for several years now. Even my new car (a MINI Cooper S) uses this kind of ignition system. In all reality, I'm really happy to see that there are several solutions out there now other than aftermarket CD boxes that don't work well or a complete aftermarket stand-alone computer/ignition system that is overkill for many of us (and horribly expensive).
arnie - I don't really follow your logic behind the LSx ignition system; 8 coils don't always mean better, and I personally think it was more a cost/packaging solution. You could apply the same logic to the Northstar ignition system (i.e., a more refined and expensive engine using lost spark method equals better). Not that I believe that, just stating that as FFT.
Each system has their pros/cons, and both are an improvement over the factory setup on the LTx engines. And I don't mean the shortcomings with the Opti - I think it's a pretty good setup and is even better once the high tension has been removed from the unit. What I'm talking about is the improvement with the available spark energy to the cylinders when using mutiple coils over a single coil configuration.
I'm partial to the lost spark configuration myself; I've been using this kind of setup for several years now. Even my new car (a MINI Cooper S) uses this kind of ignition system. In all reality, I'm really happy to see that there are several solutions out there now other than aftermarket CD boxes that don't work well or a complete aftermarket stand-alone computer/ignition system that is overkill for many of us (and horribly expensive).
02-08-2004, 10:43 AM
#93
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: smog zone adjacent to a great lake
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Originally posted by Curt (pres AAMC & ZAA)
arnie - I don't really follow your logic behind the LSx ignition system; 8 coils don't always mean better, and I personally think it was more a cost/packaging solution.
arnie - I don't really follow your logic behind the LSx ignition system; 8 coils don't always mean better, and I personally think it was more a cost/packaging solution.
Not alluding to any facts at hand, or superiority of one over the other, just considering the 'direction' taken by GM.
02-08-2004, 11:59 AM
#94
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Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Pacific North West
Posts: 1,431
Well after many monthes of reading I have came to some what of a conclusion.
From every thing I have read it looks like I will be installing the LTCC on my Blue car when the 427 goes in. It has the features i need for racing and running 300Hp N2O
YET If the wifes Red 95 Z28 needs another opti(We live in Seattle area) It looks like the Deltec would be beter for hers. It looks simple clean and complete.
I have Eight opti's here if you count the two on the cars! THEY are both less then a year old!
From every thing I have read it looks like I will be installing the LTCC on my Blue car when the 427 goes in. It has the features i need for racing and running 300Hp N2O
YET If the wifes Red 95 Z28 needs another opti(We live in Seattle area) It looks like the Deltec would be beter for hers. It looks simple clean and complete.
I have Eight opti's here if you count the two on the cars! THEY are both less then a year old!
02-08-2004, 01:30 PM
#95
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Juan PR
Posts: 3,083
Originally posted by arnie
Curt, in condensed words, why design another system when the one already available is adequate? Was more a cost/packaging solution? 8 coils to 4, cost effective? Not alluding to any facts at hand, or superiority of one over the other, just considering the 'direction' taken by GM.
Curt, in condensed words, why design another system when the one already available is adequate? Was more a cost/packaging solution? 8 coils to 4, cost effective?
Not alluding to any facts at hand, or superiority of one over the other, just considering the 'direction' taken by GM.
But... I also think that the coil on plug is to have a more accurate system regarding which cylinder is missfiring.. It is more accurate for missfires with 8 INDIVIDUAL than 4 splitted...
I also think that the 8 coils work a lot less and could provide a better spark...
The more individuality you get would mean that in future generations we could get an O2 sensor for each exhaust and have different timing offsets for every cylinder ??? it doesn't make much sense.. but it could happen for some reason...
Have you changed spark plugs on an LS1.. at the first moment it gets "angry" before it "relearns" the resistance of the plugs or something...
I do think that with the movement from the l98 to the lt1 it was a HUGE leap... and from the LT1 to the LS1 it was an even bigger leap and I always understand GMs movement towards things... If they used it in a real production car it means that it was better than an off the shelf thing.
02-08-2004, 06:14 PM
#96
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 511
So is now the time to drag GM into the courts and force a "RECALL" to commit GM to install an LS1-like solution? They fail to acknowledge the design problems. We could muster up 100+ incidents and design proof they they were incompetent and negligent.
Force GM to pay for LTCC and the labor!
Force GM to pay for LTCC and the labor!
02-08-2004, 10:22 PM
#97
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,481
Originally posted by Ultra_Dog
So is now the time to drag GM into the courts and force a "RECALL" to commit GM to install an LS1-like solution? They fail to acknowledge the design problems. We could muster up 100+ incidents and design proof they they were incompetent and negligent.
Force GM to pay for LTCC and the labor!
So is now the time to drag GM into the courts and force a "RECALL" to commit GM to install an LS1-like solution? They fail to acknowledge the design problems. We could muster up 100+ incidents and design proof they they were incompetent and negligent.
Force GM to pay for LTCC and the labor!
Maybe if any LT1 powered vehicle was still under factory warranty they could muster up a suit. But, I'm pretty sure that GM has washed its hands of the LT1....
02-09-2004, 09:12 AM
#98
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: College Station, Tx, USA
Posts: 219
If you leave your car stock the opti works just fine. If you don't put an aftermarket ignition and your waterpump doesn't go out it still works fine with normal higher output setups.
Most of the issues seem to come from
1) Aftermarket ignitions
2) Camshafts with too long dowel pins (aftermarket)
3) Water
2 & 3 can easily be remedied, but with extreme setups (1) is definitely required. Which is the big advantage of the LTCC - not that 8 coils are always better than one, but that you have removed the electro-mechanical high voltage interface.
Chris
Most of the issues seem to come from
1) Aftermarket ignitions
2) Camshafts with too long dowel pins (aftermarket)
3) Water
2 & 3 can easily be remedied, but with extreme setups (1) is definitely required. Which is the big advantage of the LTCC - not that 8 coils are always better than one, but that you have removed the electro-mechanical high voltage interface.
Chris
02-09-2004, 01:23 PM
#100
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,481
Originally posted by The Highlander
So 8 coils are NOT better than 1?
So 8 coils are NOT better than 1?
I think he is more or less saying that for the everyday Camaro enthusiast, it is not plausible to spend the extra dough, unless you need it.
02-09-2004, 10:18 PM
#102
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Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Pacific North West
Posts: 1,431
Chris B I disagree. The wifes motor is un-touched with stock ignition. We are on the third Opti since we have owned it. A little over two years. Then again it might be the average yearly rain fall here in the seattle area 
We had almost FIVE inches in 12 hours not to long ago
We had almost FIVE inches in 12 hours not to long ago
02-10-2004, 10:32 AM
#104
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 39
8-coil vs 4-coil
Regarding the comparison between 8 and 4 coil systems, there are a few myths to dispel...
8-coil systems do not have an inherant ability to provide individual cylinder corrections any better than 4-coil systems...at least in the under 10,000rpm world that LT1's live in. This is because the GM ECM is able to send the same timing signal (that is cylinder-dependent) to a 4-coil module or an 8-coil system. A somewhat overlooked fact is that LT1's use a cylinder-dependent timing curve from the factory...with only one coil!!
As far as the power difference goes between the LS1 8-coil system and the Northstar 4-coil system, there is not much of a difference. The LS1 coils, when you are looking at things like dwell times and coil currents on an oscilliscope, are definitely much weaker than Northstar coils. In fact, there is really no comparison. The "leveling" of the playing field occurs when the LS1 coils are connected to a single spark plug with an 8" spark plug wire, then the Northstar coil is connected to two spark plugs and two longer wires. Naturally, the Northstar coil must overcome some small losses in the longer ignition wires and in the waste-spark cylinder.
However, the amount of energy actually lost in the waste spark cylinder is often overstated. An easy way to prove this to yourself is to shock yourself when you get out of your car on a cold day. The spark can jump over an inch with ease! So how hard is it for a big ignition coil to dissipate a little energy to jump a 0.050" gap on a waste spark plug that is not even undergoing the pressure of compression?? The answer is not very hard!! In fact, at least 85% of the energy of the coil ends up in the compression cylinder!
SO, make no mistake, it would be foolish to argue that an LS1 coil is more powerful than a big Northstar coil. However, given real world applications, there is a certain leveling of the playing field caused by the designs of the systems. But remember, if you need to run longer-than-LS1 spark plug wires for your LT1 with LS1 coils, you will definitely start to see a drop in plug energy. The LS1 coils were designed small because they knew that the spark plug wires would be short.
Pete
8-coil systems do not have an inherant ability to provide individual cylinder corrections any better than 4-coil systems...at least in the under 10,000rpm world that LT1's live in. This is because the GM ECM is able to send the same timing signal (that is cylinder-dependent) to a 4-coil module or an 8-coil system. A somewhat overlooked fact is that LT1's use a cylinder-dependent timing curve from the factory...with only one coil!!
As far as the power difference goes between the LS1 8-coil system and the Northstar 4-coil system, there is not much of a difference. The LS1 coils, when you are looking at things like dwell times and coil currents on an oscilliscope, are definitely much weaker than Northstar coils. In fact, there is really no comparison. The "leveling" of the playing field occurs when the LS1 coils are connected to a single spark plug with an 8" spark plug wire, then the Northstar coil is connected to two spark plugs and two longer wires. Naturally, the Northstar coil must overcome some small losses in the longer ignition wires and in the waste-spark cylinder.
However, the amount of energy actually lost in the waste spark cylinder is often overstated. An easy way to prove this to yourself is to shock yourself when you get out of your car on a cold day. The spark can jump over an inch with ease! So how hard is it for a big ignition coil to dissipate a little energy to jump a 0.050" gap on a waste spark plug that is not even undergoing the pressure of compression?? The answer is not very hard!! In fact, at least 85% of the energy of the coil ends up in the compression cylinder!
SO, make no mistake, it would be foolish to argue that an LS1 coil is more powerful than a big Northstar coil. However, given real world applications, there is a certain leveling of the playing field caused by the designs of the systems. But remember, if you need to run longer-than-LS1 spark plug wires for your LT1 with LS1 coils, you will definitely start to see a drop in plug energy. The LS1 coils were designed small because they knew that the spark plug wires would be short.
Pete
02-10-2004, 11:29 AM
#105
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Juan PR
Posts: 3,083
LT1 coils are not that much bigger than ls1 coils...
The fact that it can jump an inch without pressure means very little when you have 600hp pusing in there...
But I agree with what said above... why reinvent the wheel? obviously because it was a better route for many reasons.
The fact that it can jump an inch without pressure means very little when you have 600hp pusing in there...
But I agree with what said above... why reinvent the wheel? obviously because it was a better route for many reasons.