.005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
#1
.005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
Fellow cz28.com member is helping me with the new motor. He is in another state so I haven't seen it run yet personally. He says he can hear piston slap and believes it is the cause of false knock showing up on the scan. The machine shop said they clearanced the pistons to .005 We had asked for .004 because of reverse flow cylinder head cooling. It was never actually checked by the mechanic who assembled the motor.
The fellow who's helping me says if it's the cause of the false knock I will probably just have to live with it or disable the knock system. I am definitely not comfortable disabling it. He said we may try loosening the sensor in the block a little (yes, it's an LT4 module on the ECM). I am afraid if we do that it may not be able to hear real knock either. Any way to get the sensor or module/ecm to differentiate between knock and slap?
How many of you who've rebuilt went with .005 piston clearance? Do you have the same problem?
The fellow who's helping me says if it's the cause of the false knock I will probably just have to live with it or disable the knock system. I am definitely not comfortable disabling it. He said we may try loosening the sensor in the block a little (yes, it's an LT4 module on the ECM). I am afraid if we do that it may not be able to hear real knock either. Any way to get the sensor or module/ecm to differentiate between knock and slap?
How many of you who've rebuilt went with .005 piston clearance? Do you have the same problem?
#2
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
I think you are a little tight, are you sure .005" is the number you are thinking?
Ive always been told, and recently by a nascar/top fuel builder that .080 is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM, and .100 is a safer number to shoot for. .005" is like inkjet paper i just measured in at .004" so I dont think thats what it is set at, or if it is its definitely a problem.
Ive always been told, and recently by a nascar/top fuel builder that .080 is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM, and .100 is a safer number to shoot for. .005" is like inkjet paper i just measured in at .004" so I dont think thats what it is set at, or if it is its definitely a problem.
#3
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
You didn't state who's pistons you are using so i do not know if it is to loose. I have my SRP forged pistons with .0045 clearance with no noise at all. .005 is a little loose but then we need to know what pistons they are (forged, cast, hypertuetic). Some run tight at .0025 to .003. Unfortunately the person who assembled the engine did not check so this is all of a guess. I have seen some right ups that people have changed the threshold of the sensors sensitivity with different resistors but have not done this myself. I personally run a DFI without a knock sensor so this is no real crises to me.
#4
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
All depends on the brand of pistons, piston alloy, where that brand measures for P to W clearance.....
Depending on the piston .005 could be loose.
Bret
Depending on the piston .005 could be loose.
Bret
#5
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
All depends on the brand of pistons, piston alloy, where that brand measures for P to W clearance.....
Depending on the piston .005 could be loose.
Bret
Depending on the piston .005 could be loose.
Bret
You can program your knock sensors to not pull timing out if you sure the noise you hear is not detonation. A bnch of people do that even though I don't think it's the best of ideas.
#6
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
Originally Posted by jonaddis84
I think you are a little tight, are you sure .005" is the number you are thinking?
Ive always been told, and recently by a nascar/top fuel builder that .080 is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM, and .100 is a safer number to shoot for. .005" is like inkjet paper i just measured in at .004" so I dont think thats what it is set at, or if it is its definitely a problem.
Ive always been told, and recently by a nascar/top fuel builder that .080 is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM, and .100 is a safer number to shoot for. .005" is like inkjet paper i just measured in at .004" so I dont think thats what it is set at, or if it is its definitely a problem.
#7
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
Originally Posted by marshall93z
you might be thinking about P to V clearance!!
Didnt even notice it. Disregard my post.
#8
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
Well i have a guy here who has the same problem. and we now know why. As you pointed out the mechanic did not check to clearance. Wrong answer for him.
THis customer did check his clearance and thought it was good...then found out he measured it the wrong way.
Now add to this the fact the pistons he bought were clearanced for a 4.0300 bore and the Machinest cut them to 4.0350 and you quickly find a .0100 clearance.
As many have pointed out with out all the clues like piston producer and what the final bore was hard to tell
Good luck man!
THis customer did check his clearance and thought it was good...then found out he measured it the wrong way.
Now add to this the fact the pistons he bought were clearanced for a 4.0300 bore and the Machinest cut them to 4.0350 and you quickly find a .0100 clearance.
As many have pointed out with out all the clues like piston producer and what the final bore was hard to tell
Good luck man!
#9
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
If anyone can hear piston slap from .004 to .005 They are damn good. .001 is not going to sound like a diesel either.Ya got to get way more than that to get a good set of pistons to knock.
IF,and I say IF you have slap@.005 you will only hear it when it is cold,it will go away when the engine get's to NOT.
Don't believe it's a problem but if it is get you the correct resistor from Radio Shack and put it inline to your knock sender and be done with it.
IF,and I say IF you have slap@.005 you will only hear it when it is cold,it will go away when the engine get's to NOT.
Don't believe it's a problem but if it is get you the correct resistor from Radio Shack and put it inline to your knock sender and be done with it.
#10
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
Sorry I forgot to mention piston type. They are Speed Pro forged pistons. My mechanic checked everything else like bearing clearances and deck height .....beats me why he didn't check the piston to wall clearance. Anyway, the machine shop claimed they did it at .005 which is probably what the pistons call for on the box they come in.
Can someone explain this to me anyway ...I don't really understand what the clearancing is. I thought if you were bored .030 over you were bored .030 over ...how/when does additional clearancing come into play?
Also, yes .....it is happening after the car is warmed up too. As you rev the motor the module pulls more timing as the RPM goes up.
Can someone explain this to me anyway ...I don't really understand what the clearancing is. I thought if you were bored .030 over you were bored .030 over ...how/when does additional clearancing come into play?
Also, yes .....it is happening after the car is warmed up too. As you rev the motor the module pulls more timing as the RPM goes up.
Last edited by canbaufo; 03-05-2005 at 12:46 PM.
#11
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
Originally Posted by canbaufo
Can someone explain this to me anyway ...I don't really understand what the clearancing is. I thought if you were bored .030 over you were bored .030 over ...how/when does additional clearancing come into play?
HTH.
-Mindgame
#12
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
Originally Posted by Mindgame
The clearance is the difference in the bore diameter and the piston diameter at it's checking area. Let's say you've bought a set of .030-over pistons and the manufacturer recommends .003 clearance for your type of build. You mic the pistons (where the manufacturer recommends you mic) and they measure 4.028. So, your boring operation is shooting for 4.031 to establish the correct clearance. Just an example but that's why the pistons need to be in the builders shop before any boring is done.
HTH.
-Mindgame
HTH.
-Mindgame
Oh yeah ....by the way, if they overclearanced the block wasn't I pretty much screwed with those pistons anyway? Once you've overclearanced it's too late and a different set of pistons would be required.
Last edited by canbaufo; 03-05-2005 at 01:10 PM.
#13
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
Originally Posted by canbaufo
Sorry I forgot to mention piston type. They are Speed Pro forged pistons. My mechanic checked everything else like bearing clearances and deck height .....beats me why he didn't check the piston to wall clearance. Anyway, the machine shop claimed they did it at .005 which is probably what the pistons call for on the box they come in.
Can someone explain this to me anyway ...I don't really understand what the clearancing is. I thought if you were bored .030 over you were bored .030 over ...how/when does additional clearancing come into play?
Also, yes .....it is happening after the car is warmed up too. As you rev the motor the module pulls more timing as the RPM goes up.
Can someone explain this to me anyway ...I don't really understand what the clearancing is. I thought if you were bored .030 over you were bored .030 over ...how/when does additional clearancing come into play?
Also, yes .....it is happening after the car is warmed up too. As you rev the motor the module pulls more timing as the RPM goes up.
There is all different kinds of false knock in a built engine. Do a search and get the resistor that goes inline with your knock sender and get rid of any false knock.Get a good dyno tune also to make sure your timing and fuel are correct and you should be good to go.
#14
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
Originally Posted by 1racerdude
The noise is probably something other than slap.
There is all different kinds of false knock in a built engine. Do a search and get the resistor that goes inline with your knock sender and get rid of any false knock.Get a good dyno tune also to make sure your timing and fuel are correct and you should be good to go.
There is all different kinds of false knock in a built engine. Do a search and get the resistor that goes inline with your knock sender and get rid of any false knock.Get a good dyno tune also to make sure your timing and fuel are correct and you should be good to go.
#15
Re: .005 piston clearance causing slap and perhaps causing false knock ....any cure?
I dont know the expansion properties of the pistons you are running, or even pretend to. But if you cant get rid of the knock, try running the engine hotter, like at factory temp, assuming you probably have a 160stat in it.