How do I beat a 94-98 Mustang GT in my TBI?
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 308
From: Stillwater, OK
There's definately an art to making a SLOW car FAST. It's a shame how most people here don't understand that. Heck, there are 8 second Civics right now and they have a 1.6L engine (Check out Lisa Kubo's Nitto Civic).
The owner of TriZone motorsports could get his puny little 1.6L engine into the 13's and most of you guys are saying that I can't get a 5.0L V8 into the 12's??
It wouldn't be fair if I smoked the guys high 13 second Civic in my 96 because it has triple the displacement which makes adding power so much easier. The HOTCAM kit, headers and tuning alone gave me 50 RWHP.
No disrespect or anything - I just wanted to vent.
The owner of TriZone motorsports could get his puny little 1.6L engine into the 13's and most of you guys are saying that I can't get a 5.0L V8 into the 12's??
It wouldn't be fair if I smoked the guys high 13 second Civic in my 96 because it has triple the displacement which makes adding power so much easier. The HOTCAM kit, headers and tuning alone gave me 50 RWHP.
No disrespect or anything - I just wanted to vent.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 27
From: so. cal
Hey 96cam4ro,
that honestly has been my argument time and time again. People honestly just get something stuck in their head that "oh, it's a 305 not a 350, better get yourself a 350" though that person has never actually tried putting any money or time into a 305.
greed4speed
Look at my post before about comparing the lb9 and the l98. What it sounds like you are saying is that 15hp and 35ft lbs of torque take a car from being a 16 second car (in your opinion) to a low 14 second car? Wow! Well, maybe I can stroke it than, and using your numbers, I should be in what? the 10's?
Do you even own a thirdgen or are they all your "friends" cars?
My buddy has a flowmaster catback and an open element on his 92 RS and with bad valve seals still smokes them up anytime he needs too. Were dropping some vette heads on that puppy and some nice headers. Once again by your numbers we should shoot down from a 16 second car to at least a 12 second car.
Got to raise it again
that honestly has been my argument time and time again. People honestly just get something stuck in their head that "oh, it's a 305 not a 350, better get yourself a 350" though that person has never actually tried putting any money or time into a 305.
greed4speed
Look at my post before about comparing the lb9 and the l98. What it sounds like you are saying is that 15hp and 35ft lbs of torque take a car from being a 16 second car (in your opinion) to a low 14 second car? Wow! Well, maybe I can stroke it than, and using your numbers, I should be in what? the 10's?
Do you even own a thirdgen or are they all your "friends" cars?
My buddy has a flowmaster catback and an open element on his 92 RS and with bad valve seals still smokes them up anytime he needs too. Were dropping some vette heads on that puppy and some nice headers. Once again by your numbers we should shoot down from a 16 second car to at least a 12 second car.
Got to raise it again
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,507
From: FTW, TX
Raise it all you want. I know what I've seen at tracks. I also read the timeslips posted by Beast.
Ya, you can make a slow car fast. It isn't an art its called a large budget. I've seen some fast Hondas, but they had as much $ in their turbo set up as I do in my car, and thats not even looking at the $ they have in their drivetrain. By the end there isn't much Honda in that engine. I never said you couldn't make the 305 run fast. Just that it'll cost you more and you still won't out perform a 350 with far less cash invested in it.
When I can see several people running modded 305s dumping over $1500 into a car that can't even beat a stock 350, why would I want to try it? I'd rather dump $1500 into a 350 and run faster. A 350 TPI can run high 13's virtually stock. Can your 305? Don't tell me 305's aren't week. GM engineers put the 5 speed behind them because they weren't strong anough to tear it up but the 350 was. That should tell you something.
It isn't my opinion, the timeslips were posted in this thread. Look at them. 16 sec w/ chip and 3.73's then another $2000 to run 14's. A stock 350 can run that.
I've been building cars and drag racing for 16 years and even wrenched for some dirt track cars. I'm not some idiot that doesn't know engines. I've known guys that have tried to get 305's to run with the 350 even by stroking them. After they dump all that time and $ into the car they all came to the conclusion that it isn't worth it.
I'll even raise the BS flag. Post some numbers. Lets see some timeslips or a dyno sheet to back up your claims. My proof? Look at what Beast posted. That should be proof enough.
It's very convenient the way you have never referred to his data. I guess its easier to ignore it when it doesn't support your point of view.
Oh, and being able to smoke tires has no bearing on how fast your car is. If anything you'll run a slower ET. He needs to set up his suspension better. I've seen family sedans that could burn tires like mad and yet run 17's. I always laugh at the dorks that think their car is fast because they can spin tires. If you were a serious racer you would too. Then again if you were serious you'd have a 350!
Ya, you can make a slow car fast. It isn't an art its called a large budget. I've seen some fast Hondas, but they had as much $ in their turbo set up as I do in my car, and thats not even looking at the $ they have in their drivetrain. By the end there isn't much Honda in that engine. I never said you couldn't make the 305 run fast. Just that it'll cost you more and you still won't out perform a 350 with far less cash invested in it.
When I can see several people running modded 305s dumping over $1500 into a car that can't even beat a stock 350, why would I want to try it? I'd rather dump $1500 into a 350 and run faster. A 350 TPI can run high 13's virtually stock. Can your 305? Don't tell me 305's aren't week. GM engineers put the 5 speed behind them because they weren't strong anough to tear it up but the 350 was. That should tell you something.
It isn't my opinion, the timeslips were posted in this thread. Look at them. 16 sec w/ chip and 3.73's then another $2000 to run 14's. A stock 350 can run that.
I've been building cars and drag racing for 16 years and even wrenched for some dirt track cars. I'm not some idiot that doesn't know engines. I've known guys that have tried to get 305's to run with the 350 even by stroking them. After they dump all that time and $ into the car they all came to the conclusion that it isn't worth it.
I'll even raise the BS flag.
Post some numbers. Lets see some timeslips or a dyno sheet to back up your claims. My proof? Look at what Beast posted. That should be proof enough.It's very convenient the way you have never referred to his data. I guess its easier to ignore it when it doesn't support your point of view.
Oh, and being able to smoke tires has no bearing on how fast your car is. If anything you'll run a slower ET. He needs to set up his suspension better. I've seen family sedans that could burn tires like mad and yet run 17's. I always laugh at the dorks that think their car is fast because they can spin tires. If you were a serious racer you would too. Then again if you were serious you'd have a 350!
Last edited by Greed4Speed; Jun 1, 2003 at 04:11 PM.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16
From: ocean gate new jersey
Originally posted by Greed4Speed
jstcrzyengh
Raise the BS flag all you want. Look at the slips Beast put down. Great documentation btw Beast. Ya, he got in the 14's, but for over $2000, and that was with 3.73's. Add another $400 for the gears and installation. A STOCK 350 can run that time or better. No offense, but the 305 just can't compete. Ya, they can run faster, but how much more money will it cost? My Bro-in-laws basically STOCK '86 5.0 Stang GT ran 14.03 with 2.73 gears. It did have flows as the only mod, but mufflers don't make that big of difference. Compare that to a friends '92 RS w/ the 305 TPI that ran in the 16's w/ a chip and a muffler.
jstcrzyengh
Raise the BS flag all you want. Look at the slips Beast put down. Great documentation btw Beast. Ya, he got in the 14's, but for over $2000, and that was with 3.73's. Add another $400 for the gears and installation. A STOCK 350 can run that time or better. No offense, but the 305 just can't compete. Ya, they can run faster, but how much more money will it cost? My Bro-in-laws basically STOCK '86 5.0 Stang GT ran 14.03 with 2.73 gears. It did have flows as the only mod, but mufflers don't make that big of difference. Compare that to a friends '92 RS w/ the 305 TPI that ran in the 16's w/ a chip and a muffler.
the rs was either a v6 or a 305 TBI . worlds of differece from a tpi motor .
second of all . the 305 may be more expensive to mod . however , if your not looking to get into the 10's they are able to do the job .
there are literally TONS of street driven 305's right in the 13 second range for uner 2 g's .
hell , i had my lowly lg4 in my z28 running 14.6's at a hair over 97mph for a grand total of about 850 bucks , that was on a 2.73 peg leg rear .
the 305 tpi backed by a t-5 (depending on the year) will run anywhere from a mid 14 to a very low 15 . with a decent driver
im not saying its a great motor , but just like any other motor , if you pick and match parts the right way , it can be a very good performer on a tight budget .
think 305's are **** , look what happens when you boost them
look at the very first car on the page 
http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/friends.htm
Last edited by jeff87formula; Jun 1, 2003 at 05:19 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,507
From: FTW, TX
first off , the rs was never offered with tpi unless it was a b4c car (rare), which was a police package rs with a 350 tuned port injection motor (l98)
think 305's are **** , look what happens when you boost them
I agree, if you pick and match the parts you can run decent. But you'll never compete w/a 350 w/ the same mods. OK, so for $850 you can run 14.7....that still isn't fast enough to beat a stock Mustang. At least not one w/ a 5 spd and good driver.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 44
From: FL NY
Originally posted by Greed4Speed
Raise it all you want. I know what I've seen at tracks. I also read the timeslips posted by Beast....
I never said you couldn't make the 305 run fast. Just that it'll cost you more and you still won't out perform a 350 with far less cash invested in it....
When I can see several people running modded 305s dumping over $1500 into a car that can't even beat a stock 350, why would I want to try it?...
It isn't my opinion, the timeslips were posted in this thread. Look at them. 16 sec w/ chip and 3.73's then another $2000 to run 14's. A stock 350 can run that.
Raise it all you want. I know what I've seen at tracks. I also read the timeslips posted by Beast....
I never said you couldn't make the 305 run fast. Just that it'll cost you more and you still won't out perform a 350 with far less cash invested in it....
When I can see several people running modded 305s dumping over $1500 into a car that can't even beat a stock 350, why would I want to try it?...
It isn't my opinion, the timeslips were posted in this thread. Look at them. 16 sec w/ chip and 3.73's then another $2000 to run 14's. A stock 350 can run that.
$2000 was the new part cost of everything I put on my car.
If you don't include a cat-back ~$250 b/c everyone already has a cat-back exhaust.
It should cost ~$1500 to take a stock 305 TBI to run mid-low 14s buying the parts new except for the camshaft.
To get a used 350 TPI into a TBI car costs ~$1800-2200 if it has to be shipped. Lets not get started on buying a 1 piece roller 350 new/rebuilt long block costs $1700 by itself shipped (see sig)
used 350 TPI $1250 assuming this has wiring harness and ALL sensors and ECM
fuel pump $110
Dual fans used $~75
shipping $250-300
headers and cat $430 (needs exhaust)
The 350 TPI swap (w/ headers) gives you high 13s to mid 14s for minimum $1800. The stock 305 TBI modded with $1500 gives you low to mid 14s w/o swapping the engine.
It basically comes down to how fast you want to go. ~275 hp or less, keeping the 305 will be easier and probably cheaper. Trying to make more than 300 hp NA will be a lot easier with a 350 and still give you a platform to build on, while a 305 NA making 300+ hp is basically going to cost a lot more than a bigger engine. Stock 305 heads and stock L98, LT1 cam will easily support 250+ hp and 300+ ft-lbs of torque in a 305 ci engine.
In summary, if you want to eventually run mid 13s or faster NA, start with a 350 and then build up. If you are happy with high 13s to mid 14s for you car then stick with the stock 305 NA b/c it can be done with cheap stock iron 305 (TPI) heads and stock 350 (L98, LT1) cam, which will be easier and more cost efficient than swapping in a 350.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16
From: ocean gate new jersey
Originally posted by Greed4Speed
Thats funny, I know 2 people w/ a RS w/ 305 TPI.
But look at how much more you get from boosting a 350 or Ford's 5.0.
I agree, if you pick and match the parts you can run decent. But you'll never compete w/a 350 w/ the same mods. OK, so for $850 you can run 14.7....that still isn't fast enough to beat a stock Mustang. At least not one w/ a 5 spd and good driver.
Thats funny, I know 2 people w/ a RS w/ 305 TPI.
But look at how much more you get from boosting a 350 or Ford's 5.0.
I agree, if you pick and match the parts you can run decent. But you'll never compete w/a 350 w/ the same mods. OK, so for $850 you can run 14.7....that still isn't fast enough to beat a stock Mustang. At least not one w/ a 5 spd and good driver.
http://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/techdb.shtml
and there are STOCK 305's that can beat stock mustangs . so saying that no 305 can beat a stock mustang is a pretty retarded comment .
hp ratings on a 305 are anywhere from 155 to 230 and from 250 ft lbs to 300 ft lbs .
i started with 170 , so i think that going 14.6 is pretty damn good for my motor .
im not gonna argue though , the tech sheet speaks for itself
Last edited by jeff87formula; Jun 1, 2003 at 06:33 PM.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16
From: ocean gate new jersey
Originally posted by Greed4Speed
But look at how much more you get from boosting a 350 or Ford's 5.0.
But look at how much more you get from boosting a 350 or Ford's 5.0.
thats not even a completly wild setup .
its its a no brainer that more cubes= more power .
Last edited by jeff87formula; Jun 1, 2003 at 06:57 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 27
From: so. cal
1992 RS 305 TPI 
Man might want to tell my roommate that considering his is a full heritage edition and came with the 305 TBI.
gunny and beast know what's up. Like I said 1:1 ratio (cubic inch to horsepower) the 305 is fine N/A, but that can almost be said for any size engine. You dont want to take a 350 much past 1:1 without losing major fuel economy, which the point should be to beat the mustang while still getting better gas mileage. It's called rubbing it in their face. Once you start pushing 400 hp, I here most people start talking about 383's and 400's. I mean if you really want to push an engine swap do it right and push a ramjet 502, Why spend the money on a 350 only to get beat by ls1's or Mustang cobra's. If your going to do it do it right
Man might want to tell my roommate that considering his is a full heritage edition and came with the 305 TBI.
gunny and beast know what's up. Like I said 1:1 ratio (cubic inch to horsepower) the 305 is fine N/A, but that can almost be said for any size engine. You dont want to take a 350 much past 1:1 without losing major fuel economy, which the point should be to beat the mustang while still getting better gas mileage. It's called rubbing it in their face. Once you start pushing 400 hp, I here most people start talking about 383's and 400's. I mean if you really want to push an engine swap do it right and push a ramjet 502, Why spend the money on a 350 only to get beat by ls1's or Mustang cobra's. If your going to do it do it right
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,240
From: Markham, ON
wow its funny because none of you really get it. The guy who started this post is just someone who has a 305 tbi and is tired of getting out run by ****ty *** stangs. GUESS WHAT this guy probably doesnt want to run in the 11's he just wants his car to keep up. The only reason that it would ever make sense to buy a 305 is because you are concerned with your gas mileage. The extra .7L is going to use up a fair bit of gas.
If you did plan on getting your cars into the 11's if you buy a 305 your an idiot unless you had already planned on doing an engine swap. There are plenty of cars out there with 350s that are in the same condition and at the same price as many 305s. So basically telling a person to swap their engine doesnt make any sense. If a bigger engine was all this guy wanted he would have either already changed his engine or just bought one with a 350.
ALL THIS PERSON WANTS IS TO MAKE THE FUEL EFFICIENT CAR HE HAS A LITTLE QUICKER
and why the hell would you argue to drop a 350 into a 305 car?!?!?!? If you had half a brain youd realize that if he wanted to drop a bigger engine in why the hell would you drop a 350 in? cost wise it doesnt make much sense unless you are offered one cheap. If you were interested in getting a bigger engine why not get a 454 thatd smoke a pos 350 any day of the week.
The basic fact being that no one can argue that a bigger engine wont go faster because it doesnt make any sense and if i have to start explaining power to weight ratios to people ill snap. THIS PERSON DOESNT WANT A BIGGER ENGINE HE WANTS HIS EXISTING ENGINE TO BE A LITTLE QUICKER AND I BET HE REALLY DOESNT WANT TO SPEND OVER A 1000 BUCKS. PERSONALLY I SEE THE FUN IN MAKING YOUR CAR AS FAST AS CAN BE BUT THATS NOT WHY EVERYONE OWNS A CAR.
any questions class?
If you did plan on getting your cars into the 11's if you buy a 305 your an idiot unless you had already planned on doing an engine swap. There are plenty of cars out there with 350s that are in the same condition and at the same price as many 305s. So basically telling a person to swap their engine doesnt make any sense. If a bigger engine was all this guy wanted he would have either already changed his engine or just bought one with a 350.
ALL THIS PERSON WANTS IS TO MAKE THE FUEL EFFICIENT CAR HE HAS A LITTLE QUICKER
and why the hell would you argue to drop a 350 into a 305 car?!?!?!? If you had half a brain youd realize that if he wanted to drop a bigger engine in why the hell would you drop a 350 in? cost wise it doesnt make much sense unless you are offered one cheap. If you were interested in getting a bigger engine why not get a 454 thatd smoke a pos 350 any day of the week.
The basic fact being that no one can argue that a bigger engine wont go faster because it doesnt make any sense and if i have to start explaining power to weight ratios to people ill snap. THIS PERSON DOESNT WANT A BIGGER ENGINE HE WANTS HIS EXISTING ENGINE TO BE A LITTLE QUICKER AND I BET HE REALLY DOESNT WANT TO SPEND OVER A 1000 BUCKS. PERSONALLY I SEE THE FUN IN MAKING YOUR CAR AS FAST AS CAN BE BUT THATS NOT WHY EVERYONE OWNS A CAR.
any questions class?
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 711
From: Nebraska
Shouldn't we all know by now what engines came in what cars? And the whole 5-speed behind the 305 talk is crap. GM simply wanted to entertain the market of people who wanted to shift for there car. It has nothing to do with the weak power rating!
And it should also be common knowledge that the late 90's 305 TPI 5-speed combo could easily keep up with the 350 TPI.
And it should also be common knowledge that the late 90's 305 TPI 5-speed combo could easily keep up with the 350 TPI.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 308
From: Stillwater, OK
Originally posted by doug791
wow its funny because none of you really get it. The guy who started this post is just someone who has a 305 tbi and is tired of getting out run by ****ty *** stangs. GUESS WHAT this guy probably doesnt want to run in the 11's he just wants his car to keep up. The only reason that it would ever make sense to buy a 305 is because you are concerned with your gas mileage. The extra .7L is going to use up a fair bit of gas.
If you did plan on getting your cars into the 11's if you buy a 305 your an idiot unless you had already planned on doing an engine swap. There are plenty of cars out there with 350s that are in the same condition and at the same price as many 305s. So basically telling a person to swap their engine doesnt make any sense. If a bigger engine was all this guy wanted he would have either already changed his engine or just bought one with a 350.
ALL THIS PERSON WANTS IS TO MAKE THE FUEL EFFICIENT CAR HE HAS A LITTLE QUICKER
and why the hell would you argue to drop a 350 into a 305 car?!?!?!? If you had half a brain youd realize that if he wanted to drop a bigger engine in why the hell would you drop a 350 in? cost wise it doesnt make much sense unless you are offered one cheap. If you were interested in getting a bigger engine why not get a 454 thatd smoke a pos 350 any day of the week.
The basic fact being that no one can argue that a bigger engine wont go faster because it doesnt make any sense and if i have to start explaining power to weight ratios to people ill snap. THIS PERSON DOESNT WANT A BIGGER ENGINE HE WANTS HIS EXISTING ENGINE TO BE A LITTLE QUICKER AND I BET HE REALLY DOESNT WANT TO SPEND OVER A 1000 BUCKS. PERSONALLY I SEE THE FUN IN MAKING YOUR CAR AS FAST AS CAN BE BUT THATS NOT WHY EVERYONE OWNS A CAR.
any questions class?
wow its funny because none of you really get it. The guy who started this post is just someone who has a 305 tbi and is tired of getting out run by ****ty *** stangs. GUESS WHAT this guy probably doesnt want to run in the 11's he just wants his car to keep up. The only reason that it would ever make sense to buy a 305 is because you are concerned with your gas mileage. The extra .7L is going to use up a fair bit of gas.
If you did plan on getting your cars into the 11's if you buy a 305 your an idiot unless you had already planned on doing an engine swap. There are plenty of cars out there with 350s that are in the same condition and at the same price as many 305s. So basically telling a person to swap their engine doesnt make any sense. If a bigger engine was all this guy wanted he would have either already changed his engine or just bought one with a 350.
ALL THIS PERSON WANTS IS TO MAKE THE FUEL EFFICIENT CAR HE HAS A LITTLE QUICKER
and why the hell would you argue to drop a 350 into a 305 car?!?!?!? If you had half a brain youd realize that if he wanted to drop a bigger engine in why the hell would you drop a 350 in? cost wise it doesnt make much sense unless you are offered one cheap. If you were interested in getting a bigger engine why not get a 454 thatd smoke a pos 350 any day of the week.
The basic fact being that no one can argue that a bigger engine wont go faster because it doesnt make any sense and if i have to start explaining power to weight ratios to people ill snap. THIS PERSON DOESNT WANT A BIGGER ENGINE HE WANTS HIS EXISTING ENGINE TO BE A LITTLE QUICKER AND I BET HE REALLY DOESNT WANT TO SPEND OVER A 1000 BUCKS. PERSONALLY I SEE THE FUN IN MAKING YOUR CAR AS FAST AS CAN BE BUT THATS NOT WHY EVERYONE OWNS A CAR.
any questions class?
I just want it to run mid 14's. That's good enough for me (I'll beat almost any Honda and those '96-98 SOHC GT's too since they only run 15 flat). The 96 is my PRIMARY BEAST - you can tell by the RWHP.
I plan to do an LS1 swap when this motor quits. For now, I'll run what I brought.
I really just want to keep it bolt-ons for now. What would you guys recommend?
My target is 190-200 RWHP. My stock LT1 made 235 (Auto) - I know it's a better engine.
I'm also interested in the TPI heads and LT1 cam. I've got my stock LT1 cam. Where and how much do I get the 305 TPI heads? Do they just bolt on? I was contemplating doing a head swap if I blew a head gasket or something.
Thanks.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 27
From: so. cal
It's what I have been saying all along.
Though don't go with 305 TPI heads go with 8113 casting vette heads. Same compression ratio, but aluminum and with a lot more flow. MAY cost you $100.00 more than stock 305 TPI heads. They will allow better flow and power. As for cams, you can get an LT1 cam, I have one for sale by the way (shameless plug)
But you would probably be better getting something a little hotter. Maybe an lt4 cam (not the hot cam) or with a compucam 2032HR. with that and a ported up TPI system, and some headers and free flowing exhaust you will be moving just fine.
James
Though don't go with 305 TPI heads go with 8113 casting vette heads. Same compression ratio, but aluminum and with a lot more flow. MAY cost you $100.00 more than stock 305 TPI heads. They will allow better flow and power. As for cams, you can get an LT1 cam, I have one for sale by the way
(shameless plug)But you would probably be better getting something a little hotter. Maybe an lt4 cam (not the hot cam) or with a compucam 2032HR. with that and a ported up TPI system, and some headers and free flowing exhaust you will be moving just fine.
James
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Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,610
From: Cincinnati, OH
Avoiding all the stupid bickering...
You wanna beat them quick and easy? Spray 125 shot on it. With no other mods I'd guarentee 14's given traction. Its not the most pretty way to do it, but it'll work dead on.
The hard way? Vortec heads, LT1 cam, Performer RPM manifold, and a good chip. Hell, if you build this setup I'd give you my bin for a chip. Its not optimal by a far shot, but it'll give you real good streetability. You'll probably need a fuel pump, as I recently found out.
pm me if you want straid up info without arguing over who's ***** is longer.
You wanna beat them quick and easy? Spray 125 shot on it. With no other mods I'd guarentee 14's given traction. Its not the most pretty way to do it, but it'll work dead on.
The hard way? Vortec heads, LT1 cam, Performer RPM manifold, and a good chip. Hell, if you build this setup I'd give you my bin for a chip. Its not optimal by a far shot, but it'll give you real good streetability. You'll probably need a fuel pump, as I recently found out.
pm me if you want straid up info without arguing over who's ***** is longer.