extended cranking before startup
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 31
From: MD
Re: extended cranking before startup
Have an update for anybody who is interested, with this "extended cranking time" issue.
Tested CTS with scan-tool, reads correct, as does the IAC.
I purchased the fuel pressure test kit for tbi. ($40 = Autozone)
Replaced fuel pump relay, cleared code 54. Has not returned yet...(fingers crossed)
Turned KOEO, got appxly 9psi of pressure on the gauge, then pressure dropped back down to zero. Not instantly, but within say, 10 seconds. Looked for leaks at connections, and at injectors. All clear. Started car, but still has the same extended cranking time. Fuel pressure reads 10psi while engine is running. Turned car off, pressure drops to zero. Pulled spark plugs, no fuel odor.
So I'm thinking either the regualtor, or the fuel pump check valve(?) Where is that, installed on the pump? And what is that white thing hanging there by my fuel lines? Some kind of breather or something?
I have another stock FPR that I have made adjustable, so I think I am going to try that first. Let you all know tomorrow if it's worked or not.
Tested CTS with scan-tool, reads correct, as does the IAC.
I purchased the fuel pressure test kit for tbi. ($40 = Autozone)
Replaced fuel pump relay, cleared code 54. Has not returned yet...(fingers crossed)
Turned KOEO, got appxly 9psi of pressure on the gauge, then pressure dropped back down to zero. Not instantly, but within say, 10 seconds. Looked for leaks at connections, and at injectors. All clear. Started car, but still has the same extended cranking time. Fuel pressure reads 10psi while engine is running. Turned car off, pressure drops to zero. Pulled spark plugs, no fuel odor.
So I'm thinking either the regualtor, or the fuel pump check valve(?) Where is that, installed on the pump? And what is that white thing hanging there by my fuel lines? Some kind of breather or something?
I have another stock FPR that I have made adjustable, so I think I am going to try that first. Let you all know tomorrow if it's worked or not.
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 139
From: Greenville, SC
Re: extended cranking before startup
I'd suggest driving with the fuel pressure gauge installed. See if you can hook it up in such a way that you can drive and see the gauge (not easy to do on TBIs). See if the fuel pressure drops when you gun it or while just cruising. That's a tell-tale sign of a dying pump. Check the resistance of the injectors, should be 1-2 ohms.
Just because the pressure drops relatively quickly after the car is shut off, doesn't mean that you have to replace the fuel pump, as long as their aren't any fuel leaks anywhere. The fuel pump check valve is in the fuel pump itself, and is not serviceable by itself, you have to replace the whole fuel pump.
I would suggest putting on your adjustable fuel pressure regulator, and bump the fuel pressure up to 12 PSI or so and see if it's any better. Since you swapped to an L05, your stock fuel pump is already straining to keep up (these fuel pumps can barely feed a slightly modded L03). If you decide to change the fuel pump, I would highly suggest a Walbro 190, it will feed any FI set-up you can throw at it.
Do you have a picture? I have no idea what your referring to. Where by the fuel lines is this thing, in the engine compartment, near the fuel filter, etc.?
Also, have you double-checked everything for your extended-cranking issues? Is the battery at 12.6V when off and over 14V with the car running, are the battery, starter, and alternator in good condition, are the battery cables in good condition, how old are the spark plugs, spark plug wires, and cap and rotor, have you checked or replaced the ignition control module and pick-up coil, have you checked timing, etc.?
Just because the pressure drops relatively quickly after the car is shut off, doesn't mean that you have to replace the fuel pump, as long as their aren't any fuel leaks anywhere. The fuel pump check valve is in the fuel pump itself, and is not serviceable by itself, you have to replace the whole fuel pump.
I would suggest putting on your adjustable fuel pressure regulator, and bump the fuel pressure up to 12 PSI or so and see if it's any better. Since you swapped to an L05, your stock fuel pump is already straining to keep up (these fuel pumps can barely feed a slightly modded L03). If you decide to change the fuel pump, I would highly suggest a Walbro 190, it will feed any FI set-up you can throw at it.
And what is that white thing hanging there by my fuel lines? Some kind of breather or something?
Also, have you double-checked everything for your extended-cranking issues? Is the battery at 12.6V when off and over 14V with the car running, are the battery, starter, and alternator in good condition, are the battery cables in good condition, how old are the spark plugs, spark plug wires, and cap and rotor, have you checked or replaced the ignition control module and pick-up coil, have you checked timing, etc.?
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6
From: Elkhart IN.
Re: extended cranking before startup
If the car has a good tune up on it. Your probably going to find the check ball in the fuel pump is the problem. Does the car run good while it running, if it does I wouldn't think it's the injectors. When the check ball fails it lets the all the fuel in the line drain back to the tank. It takes awhile for it to fill the line again. The extended crank time.
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 31
From: MD
Re: extended cranking before startup
Did I mention before, about the car wanting to sputter after I restart it sometimes...and that it likes to shut off if I have to stop very suddenly?
Well...
I have just come across another problem today. My girl and I took the car out today for a nice, long Sunday cruise. We stopped to get some lunch, and when I start the car, it surges really bad. I tried to back it up, and it stalled on me. I restarted the car, and it was still surging, so popped the hood and checked the fpg. It was fluctuating between 8-9. It did this constantly everytime I had to shut the car off and then restart it. BTW, when I hit the throttle, the fp went down to 7!
I have ordered a new, higher pressure pump for the car, should be here in a few days.
I also went to the auto parts store and bought a few new parts to complete my tune up.
I bought: IAC, O2, cap, rotor, and a new PCV valve.
I installed the IAC, and then took it out for a drive so the computer could reset. After the idle came back to normal (650), I turned the car on and off about 6 times, without ever getting any surging or stalling. So hopefully that will take care of the worst part of this. It still does pulse a little while stopped at a stop-light, but it's not too terrible.
I am waiting to install the cap and rotor until my new coil gets here from Summit. I plan on changing the pcv and o2 in the morning, before work.
Well...
I have just come across another problem today. My girl and I took the car out today for a nice, long Sunday cruise. We stopped to get some lunch, and when I start the car, it surges really bad. I tried to back it up, and it stalled on me. I restarted the car, and it was still surging, so popped the hood and checked the fpg. It was fluctuating between 8-9. It did this constantly everytime I had to shut the car off and then restart it. BTW, when I hit the throttle, the fp went down to 7!
I have ordered a new, higher pressure pump for the car, should be here in a few days.
I also went to the auto parts store and bought a few new parts to complete my tune up.
I bought: IAC, O2, cap, rotor, and a new PCV valve.
I installed the IAC, and then took it out for a drive so the computer could reset. After the idle came back to normal (650), I turned the car on and off about 6 times, without ever getting any surging or stalling. So hopefully that will take care of the worst part of this. It still does pulse a little while stopped at a stop-light, but it's not too terrible.
I am waiting to install the cap and rotor until my new coil gets here from Summit. I plan on changing the pcv and o2 in the morning, before work.
Last edited by jconrad; Feb 7, 2005 at 12:35 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 177
From: Toronto Ontario
Re: extended cranking before startup
Originally Posted by IROCZZ3
breakthelawinaz-
It's normal for pressure to drop off a bit over a few hours, and can drop to zero overnight.
Also there is a check valve in the fuel pump that keeps the line primed when the pump isn't running. If it's a faulty valve it can cause extended startups after the car has been sitting awhile because the fuel is draining back into the tank. Otherwise it's not a big deal and doesn't affect performance.
There are a couple of quick tests you can do to isolate a bad regulator, leaky fuel injectors, or a faulty fuel pump check valve, without taking apart the car.
To see if you have leaking injectors, pressurize the system. Clamp off the rubber pressure line and return line in the engine bay and see if the fuel pressure drops. If it drops off you can assume the injectors are leaking since the fuel has nowhere to go (unless you have a leak somewhere).
If your injectors aren't leaking, remove the clamp from the return line. You may have to repressurize the system if pressure has dropped off some. If pressure drops fairly quick then the regulator is bad....fuel is getting past the regulator too quick.
From the sounds of it though, you might have a bad coolant temp sensor....maybe incorrect temp values vs. resistance. The ECM uses the CTS values during startup.
It's normal for pressure to drop off a bit over a few hours, and can drop to zero overnight.
Also there is a check valve in the fuel pump that keeps the line primed when the pump isn't running. If it's a faulty valve it can cause extended startups after the car has been sitting awhile because the fuel is draining back into the tank. Otherwise it's not a big deal and doesn't affect performance.
There are a couple of quick tests you can do to isolate a bad regulator, leaky fuel injectors, or a faulty fuel pump check valve, without taking apart the car.
To see if you have leaking injectors, pressurize the system. Clamp off the rubber pressure line and return line in the engine bay and see if the fuel pressure drops. If it drops off you can assume the injectors are leaking since the fuel has nowhere to go (unless you have a leak somewhere).
If your injectors aren't leaking, remove the clamp from the return line. You may have to repressurize the system if pressure has dropped off some. If pressure drops fairly quick then the regulator is bad....fuel is getting past the regulator too quick.
From the sounds of it though, you might have a bad coolant temp sensor....maybe incorrect temp values vs. resistance. The ECM uses the CTS values during startup.
regards Douglas
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 31
From: MD
Re: extended cranking before startup
Originally Posted by IROCZZ3
breakthelawinaz-
If your injectors aren't leaking, remove the clamp from the return line. You may have to repressurize the system if pressure has dropped off some. If pressure drops fairly quick then the regulator is bad....fuel is getting past the regulator too quick.
If your injectors aren't leaking, remove the clamp from the return line. You may have to repressurize the system if pressure has dropped off some. If pressure drops fairly quick then the regulator is bad....fuel is getting past the regulator too quick.
From the sounds of it though, you might have a bad coolant temp sensor....maybe incorrect temp values vs. resistance. The ECM uses the CTS values during startup.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,234
From: New Bern, NC USA
Re: extended cranking before startup
If you are only getting 10 psi of fuel pressure, you could have a clogged filter, bad pump, or faulty fpr. Clamp the return line shut to see what the pressure does. If it doesn't change, your fpr is ok.
What is stock fuel pressure supposed to be?
What is stock fuel pressure supposed to be?
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 31
From: MD
Re: extended cranking before startup
Yup, fuel pressure is supposed to be anywhere from 9-12 on these tbi cars. I already have a new hp pump (up to 25psi), just waiting for a time to do the work. I guess that I should install my adjustable fpr prior to changing the pump. Know anybody that sells just the 2 gaskets that I need for the upper injector pod?
Oh yeah, I did clamp off the return line, and the fuel pressure held, so imagine that it is the fuel pump check valve, allowing the fuel to drain back into the tank.
I just put the new O2 in a few minutes ago. New cap, rotor and coil will probably go in tomorrow. Also got to find time to install my new pads.
I am also probably just going to bite the bullet and purchase new IAT and CTS while I'm at it. That way there are no more 15 year old sensors on there
The worse it could do is make it run better, and maybe save some fuel, huh?
Oh yeah, I did clamp off the return line, and the fuel pressure held, so imagine that it is the fuel pump check valve, allowing the fuel to drain back into the tank.
I just put the new O2 in a few minutes ago. New cap, rotor and coil will probably go in tomorrow. Also got to find time to install my new pads.
I am also probably just going to bite the bullet and purchase new IAT and CTS while I'm at it. That way there are no more 15 year old sensors on there
The worse it could do is make it run better, and maybe save some fuel, huh?
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